Personal COMPARISON of the 2008 M3 to the 2008 335i

[Sick Speed]

As referenced in my title this is a COMPARISON based on my objective opinion.

UPDATE - March 24, 2008

Today the technician from the dealership showed up at my house with the same 2008 M3 I test drove and wrote about in my original post.

Before anyone flames him you should know that he worked for 8 years on one of the better known Porsche ALMS teams and is an EXCEPTIONAL driver.

He did not have a lot of time but he and I both wanted to put the new M3 to the test against my tuned 335i. Remember the only performance mods I currently have are the DINAN re-flash and the DINAN exhaust.

We took them both out down to a local street that is located in an industrial part of the city where there is ZERO traffic because all of the businesses in that district have closed shop.

We started from a 20 MPH roll in 2nd gear both at about 2K RPM...sounded the horn 3 times and hit it.

The 335i took the M3 by almost an entire car length up to 80 MPH to 5K RPM mid way through 3rd and was still pulling away before we had to hit the breaks.

Remember that both the tuned 335i and the 2008 M3 do not hit their peak outputs until the top of the power band in 4th gear so we still had a lot more to go.

If...and I say IF we can get them out to a more lengthy run I will post the results.

Suffice it to say that both he and I were shocked at the results. I honestly was expecting the M3 to pull ahead of me but it was not even close. The tuned 335i pulls like a mad man.

END UPDATE

Original Post Below - March 13, 2008

A few days back a demo M3 pulled into my local dealer's lot. I have a very close friend in sales at this dealership so she called me and we scheduled a test drive.

I currently own a 2008 335i and 2004 E46 M3 - here are the specs on each to give you a frame of reference:

2008 335i
Sports Package (aside from the seats and wheels this includes a slightly stiffer set-up, matched shocks, and a slightly lower ride height)
DINAN re-flash (increases to 384 HP 412 ft/lb torque)
DINAN Exhaust (increase to 390 HP and 418 ft/lb torque)

2004 E46 M3
H & R Coil overs
H & R front & rear sways
DINAN throttle bodies
DINAN exhaust
DINAN 3.91 rear differential (increases to 296 ft/lb torque)
DINAN cold air intake

2008 E92 M3
Bone stock - by now you guys should know all the specs so I am not going to bother listing them

My 335i smokes my E46 M3 in HP and torque especially.

When I fired up the E92 M3 today the first thing you feel and hear is that sick ass V8. I mean it is unreal fellas.

So I pulled out of the lot...drove it around locally for about 15 minutes not really getting on it. I wanted to warm it up to a nominal temperature before putting it to the test.

Here are my immediate observations. The stock suspension hands down beats my sports suspension without question. It is much tighter and there is about 50% less cabin roll with the stock M3 suspension compared to the 335i stock suspension. Neither of these though match my H & R set-up on my E46. That set-up is track tight.

Anyway...the next immediate observation is the throttle response. Of course with the new M3 you feel power delivered even if you breath on the throttle. This is something I absolutely hate with the 335i twin turbos. While BMW did an excellent job of creating almost ZERO turbo spool...the fact remains that it does spool and therefor there is a very slight delay in power delivery. Not the case with the 2008 M3 of course. I loved this.

My 3rd immediate observation is with respects to braking. The 2008 M3 again really beats my 335i handily. However...I will say that I did not think the new M3's breaks were are good as my stock brakes on my E46 M3 which surprised me.

Ok...now to the power and the torque. This is where I was surprised most. In the 2008 M3 because the power delivery is immediate I had the perception of it being quicker...but...it took longer to accelerate to higher speeds than in my tuned 335i. The top of the power band from 2nd through 3rd and into 4th is where you feel every bit of the raw power of the M3 as well as the 335i. Between these gears...I was quicker in my 335i...but...and you have to hear what I am saying here...because the 335i stock suspension is not nearly as tight as the M3 and because the 335i twin turbos are so muffled compared to the throaty roar of the M3's V8 you do not FEEL it is quicker. But I could easily see my speed times were quicker than the M3.

I am not going to go over interior differences because those differences are truly subjective to what someone does or does not like. My comparison is based solely on performance.

So here is the big question. Is it worth it? Again this is a subjective question because perception equates to value. We all have different perceptions and therefore will equate value differently.

But...if I am objective in how I make this decision then there is a simple answer.

My 335i cost with the tuned turbo (DINAN) and the DINAN exhaust is roughly $45K. I still have another $8K I will put into the 335i including additional performance mods and aesthetic mods.

The stock 2008 M3 I tested was $70K. A difference of $25K.

In my opinion for a difference of $25K I want to blow the doors off of my cousin the 335i...but that isn't the case.

But...subjectively...I LOVE THE V8 in the new M3. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that engine...so to me...the price is easily justified.

This is my review for what it is worth. To all of you who are awaiting your arrival of your M3...congratulations. It is one amazing car. I will have to patiently await my turn in line as I have been doing now for the past few months.

SS

[Garissimo]

As referenced in my title this is a COMPARISON based on my objective opinion.

A few days back a demo M3 pulled into my local dealer's lot. I have a very close friend in sales at this dealership so she called me and we scheduled a test drive.

I currently own a 2008 335i and 2004 E46 M3 - here are the specs on each to give you a frame of reference:

2008 335i
Sports Package (aside from the seats and wheels this includes a slightly stiffer set-up, matched shocks, and a slightly lower ride height)
DINAN re-flash (increases to 384 HP 412 ft/lb torque)
DINAN Exhaust (increase to 390 HP and 418 ft/lb torque)

2004 E46 M3
H & R Coil overs
H & R front & rear sways
DINAN throttle bodies
DINAN exhaust
DINAN 3.91 rear differential (increases to 296 ft/lb torque)
DINAN cold air intake

2008 E92 M3
Bone stock - by now you guys should know all the specs so I am not going to bother listing them

My 335i smokes my E46 M3 in HP and torque especially.

When I fired up the E92 M3 today the first thing you feel and hear is that sick ass V8. I mean it is unreal fellas.

So I pulled out of the lot...drove it around locally for about 15 minutes not really getting on it. I wanted to warm it up to a nominal temperature before putting it to the test.

Here are my immediate observations. The stock suspension hands down beats my sports suspension without question. It is much tighter and there is about 50% less cabin roll with the stock M3 suspension compared to the 335i stock suspension. Neither of these though match my H & R set-up on my E46. That set-up is track tight.

Anyway...the next immediate observation is the throttle response. Of course with the new M3 you feel power delivered even if you breath on the throttle. This is something I absolutely hate with the 335i twin turbos. While BMW did an excellent job of creating almost ZERO turbo spool...the fact remains that it does spool and therefor there is a very slight delay in power delivery. Not the case with the 2008 M3 of course. I loved this.

My 3rd immediate observation is with respects to braking. The 2008 M3 again really beats my 335i handily. However...I will say that I did not think the new M3's breaks were are good as my stock brakes on my E46 M3 which surprised me.

Ok...now to the power and the torque. This is where I was surprised most. In the 2008 M3 because the power delivery is immediate I had the perception of it being quicker...but...it took longer to accelerate to higher speeds than in my tuned 335i. The top of the power band from 2nd through 3rd and into 4th is where you feel every bit of the raw power of the M3 as well as the 335i. Between these gears...I was quicker in my 335i...but...and you have to hear what I am saying here...because the 335i stock suspension is not nearly as tight as the M3 and because the 335i twin turbos are so muffled compared to the throaty roar of the M3's V8 you do not FEEL it is quicker. But I could easily see my speed times were quicker than the M3.

I am not going to go over interior differences because those differences are truly subjective to what someone does or does not like. My comparison is based solely on performance.

So here is the big question. Is it worth it? Again this is a subjective question because perception equates to value. We all have different perceptions and therefore will equate value differently.

But...if I am objective in how I make this decision then there is a simple answer.

My 335i cost with the tuned turbo (DINAN) and the DINAN exhaust is roughly $45K. I still have another $8K I will put into the 335i including additional performance mods and aesthetic mods.

The stock 2008 M3 I tested was $70K. A difference of $25K.

In my opinion for a difference of $25K I want to blow the doors off of my cousin the 335i...but that isn't the case.

But...subjectively...I LOVE THE V8 in the new M3. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that engine...so to me...the price is easily justified.

This is my review for what it is worth. To all of you who are awaiting your arrival of your M3...congratulations. It is one amazing car. I will have to patiently await my turn in line as I have been doing now for the past few months.

SS

Great writeup. Thanks for sharing. Out of curiosity, did you do any side by side runs of your Dinan 335i vs. E92 M3...and film them? :)

[Epacy]

Good review. Fairly void of emotion and a pretty un-biased report.

Only thing I will comment on is your bit about the difference in dollars and how you want to blow the doors off... Stock for stock it will blow the doors off a 335. Just remember you are comparing a tuned vehicle vs a completely stock one.

[MShift]

yes, and when the M3 is tuned, the 335 will still make more hp and tq due to the tunability of the turbos.

[mxyz266]

I'm still confused. So a tuned 335 gets to 60 in under 4.1? wow!

[Epacy]

I'm still confused. So a tuned 335 gets to 60 in under 4.1? wow!

No, it doesn't. Mshift's post seems to be based on peak numbers. Take that as you will.

[jaiman]

You seem to be basing your opinion off a car that a) wasn't broken in and b) you didn't take above 5500 rpm (at least i hope you didn't). I'm not surprised it felt slower than a tuned 335.

FYI: at 5500 rpm an m3 is making about 300 horsepower.

[BMW335icDDS]

As referenced in my title this is a COMPARISON based on my objective opinion.

A few days back a demo M3 pulled into my local dealer's lot. I have a very close friend in sales at this dealership so she called me and we scheduled a test drive.

I currently own a 2008 335i and 2004 E46 M3 - here are the specs on each to give you a frame of reference:

2008 335i
Sports Package (aside from the seats and wheels this includes a slightly stiffer set-up, matched shocks, and a slightly lower ride height)
DINAN re-flash (increases to 384 HP 412 ft/lb torque)
DINAN Exhaust (increase to 390 HP and 418 ft/lb torque)

2004 E46 M3
H & R Coil overs
H & R front & rear sways
DINAN throttle bodies
DINAN exhaust
DINAN 3.91 rear differential (increases to 296 ft/lb torque)
DINAN cold air intake

2008 E92 M3
Bone stock - by now you guys should know all the specs so I am not going to bother listing them

My 335i smokes my E46 M3 in HP and torque especially.

When I fired up the E92 M3 today the first thing you feel and hear is that sick ass V8. I mean it is unreal fellas.

So I pulled out of the lot...drove it around locally for about 15 minutes not really getting on it. I wanted to warm it up to a nominal temperature before putting it to the test.

Here are my immediate observations. The stock suspension hands down beats my sports suspension without question. It is much tighter and there is about 50% less cabin roll with the stock M3 suspension compared to the 335i stock suspension. Neither of these though match my H & R set-up on my E46. That set-up is track tight.

Anyway...the next immediate observation is the throttle response. Of course with the new M3 you feel power delivered even if you breath on the throttle. This is something I absolutely hate with the 335i twin turbos. While BMW did an excellent job of creating almost ZERO turbo spool...the fact remains that it does spool and therefor there is a very slight delay in power delivery. Not the case with the 2008 M3 of course. I loved this.

My 3rd immediate observation is with respects to braking. The 2008 M3 again really beats my 335i handily. However...I will say that I did not think the new M3's breaks were are good as my stock brakes on my E46 M3 which surprised me.

Ok...now to the power and the torque. This is where I was surprised most. In the 2008 M3 because the power delivery is immediate I had the perception of it being quicker...but...it took longer to accelerate to higher speeds than in my tuned 335i. The top of the power band from 2nd through 3rd and into 4th is where you feel every bit of the raw power of the M3 as well as the 335i. Between these gears...I was quicker in my 335i...but...and you have to hear what I am saying here...because the 335i stock suspension is not nearly as tight as the M3 and because the 335i twin turbos are so muffled compared to the throaty roar of the M3's V8 you do not FEEL it is quicker. But I could easily see my speed times were quicker than the M3.

I am not going to go over interior differences because those differences are truly subjective to what someone does or does not like. My comparison is based solely on performance.

So here is the big question. Is it worth it? Again this is a subjective question because perception equates to value. We all have different perceptions and therefore will equate value differently.

But...if I am objective in how I make this decision then there is a simple answer.

My 335i cost with the tuned turbo (DINAN) and the DINAN exhaust is roughly $45K. I still have another $8K I will put into the 335i including additional performance mods and aesthetic mods.

The stock 2008 M3 I tested was $70K. A difference of $25K.

In my opinion for a difference of $25K I want to blow the doors off of my cousin the 335i...but that isn't the case.

But...subjectively...I LOVE THE V8 in the new M3. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that engine...so to me...the price is easily justified.

This is my review for what it is worth. To all of you who are awaiting your arrival of your M3...congratulations. It is one amazing car. I will have to patiently await my turn in line as I have been doing now for the past few months.

SS

Good review, I totally agree. Thats why the E92 M3 to me is overpriced. Unfortunately for the M3, it has to not only contend with cars far superior (GT-R) but also vs tuned 335's that can run with M3's for much much cheaper. Although of course the M3 would still be faster on the track. That is why for me, when I wanted a step up in performance, its definately not the M3.

[Ronno111]

Good review, I totally agree. Thats why the E92 M3 to me is overpriced. Unfortunately for the M3, it has to not only contend with cars far superior (GT-R) but also vs tuned 335's that can run with M3's for much much cheaper. Although of course the M3 would still be faster on the track. That is why for me, when I wanted a step up in performance, its definately not the M3.

Fair review, but I would like to see someone drive an M3 for 6 months then test drive a 335i.... I think the 335i experience would be very blunted.

Comparing apples to apples, a tuned 335i can hang with an M3, but at what price? A voided warranty? You simply cannot look at it so simply as "a tuned 335 will keep up with an M3." ... so will a tuned 1992 Supra. So trade in your shiny new 335i and save $35k if your looking to pinch pennies.

We have to consider 2 very critical factors here as well- (1) what will a tuned M3 do to a 335? Can you imagine the power of this V8 unlocked by a Dinan flash? and (2) M-DCT. I hear it is an experience that will take your breath away, as well as your tuned 335...

[BMW335icDDS]

Fair review, but I would like to see someone drive an M3 for 6 months then test drive a 335i.... I think the 335i experience would be very blunted.

Comparing apples to apples, a tuned 335i can hang with an M3, but at what price? A voided warranty? You simply cannot look at it so simply as "a tuned 335 will keep up with an M3." ... so will a tuned 1992 Supra. So trade in your shiny new 335i and save $35k if your looking to pinch pennies.

We have to consider 2 very critical factors here as well- (1) what will a tuned M3 do to a 335? Can you imagine the power of this V8 unlocked by a Dinan flash? and (2) M-DCT. I hear it is an experience that will take your breath away, as well as your tuned 335...


The Dinan Chip, like the one the original poster has and the one I am getting makes the 335 engine put out close to the claimed 414 HP of the M3 and way more torque WITHOUT voiding the warranty. Also, a dinan flash of the M3 won't have the same performance gains from like the 335 since the M3 is NA. My main argument isn't that the 335 is better than the M3, but it is definately close to equal on the street since you can't do crazy handling stuff on the public roads. My main criticism of the M3 is that if you really want performance, well you wouldn't get a M3. You would have gotten the GT-R. Just my opinion.

[swamp2]

You seem to be basing your opinion off a car that a) wasn't broken in and b) you didn't take above 5500 rpm (at least i hope you didn't). I'm not surprised it felt slower than a tuned 335.

FYI: at 5500 rpm an m3 is making about 300 horsepower.

+1 exactly, well stated. Although I suspect much like many demo cars the break in procedures were not adhered to. Ugh.

Another point is that all of your perceptions were simply A-B driving comparisons. We all can be very fooled by jerk, lag and noise as well. I'll simply stick with my G-Tech times or magazine times to tell me which car is faster than another.

[dawgdog]

I agree with your assessment. I test drove the M3 yesterday and could not help but feel that my Vishnu V2 tuned 335 is faster. I find it hard to justify the money, but nonetheless am considering one.

[Just_me]

If people feel that M3 is overpriced then they should feel the same for RS4, C63 and IS-F.
If I could afford it I would happily buy a M3 over a 335i. A highreeving engine is da sh**! driving is more than just straightlines.

[Samifumi]

Thank you. This is a great review (very objective), and it's exactly where I am at in my decision process right now.

My practical side says the $25k difference is not worth it. But again, I am much like the rest of you, I still consider the V8 M3 despite its relative impracticality. At this point, my decision rests on the M-DCT and how it is received. Part of the allure of the M3 will be its technological advancement. If it is a disappointment, my contingency is not the 6-speed M3. It's the 335i.

[spearfisher]

good review, I like the fact that you own 2 out of the three and approach the review objectively

[MShift]

Hmm, You could definitely get the 335 to handle as well as and better than the M3 does. It just means you have to modify the car a bit. Stock for stock, M3 wins. Its not fair to compare a modded car to a stock car. However, if we're talking real world here, you are easily able to modify a 335 past every performance point of the M3. All it takes is money. $25k in money? Probably less.

What people fail to realize is that there is an intangible at work here. The M badge. For anyone who is a BMW fan or an M fan, the badge is, at times, worth as much as any other selling point of the car.

It's not because people like to brag, its because people value the heritage, the performance and the immediate status assignation you receive when you buy an M car. It's hard to describe and often gets confused with elitism and being pompous a-holes, which gives some M3 drivers (specially because they are at the top of their performance class, unlike the M5 and M6, so they care a bit less) their bad rep. Granted some let it go to their heads and do become a-holes.

It's funny now that M3 prices are through the roof and it's actually hard for most to become M3 owners. Let's face it, the M3 has a younger target market and a $70,000 price tag..two things that don't usually work well together. However, that badge sells cars. (not putting down the M3, I love it and the performance, before I get flamed.) Now though, it's becoming even sexier to own an M3 because it's just out of reach for the many that wish they could have one. This whole price thing is only adding fuel to the "M elitism" thing. This right here is why certain dealers can afford to add insane markups and premiums, because it only makes them more desirable (if thats possible).

The M3 vs 335i dilemma will never come to an end. There is a value that no amount of HP or torque or chips or suspensions on the 335 will ever be able to make up for. It is that simple. Find me one real M3 enthusiast with the means to buy one that that has chosen the 335 instead (notice I said chosen, not downgraded, I think they are both amazing cars).

Some of you will agree with me, some of you will not. I'm not saying either car is better, just explaining why it is that M3's are simply more special.

I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.

[par4bmw]

Thanks for the review and the open comments. For me, the M is more than that though. It is the overall package. It is not a value proposition - most things that are admired this much are not. Trying to compare x time 0-60 / $ will lose most times with the M. Hell, a Mustang probably wins there. The M3 is about balance. On a Sunday, it is a great car to take out on a long drive on vacant, twisty roads yet it gets you to work mon-fri with a smile on your face.

[gorun]

MShift, I dont think the 335 vs M3 dilemma exists. Like the person after you said M is a complete package and no ammount of tuning can make the 335 feel that way in quite the same way as the M3 does. You simply cannot compete with the chaps at M division. Chances are they know a thing or two more than you and the various tuners. I see that you have an STI, I used to own a WRX back in the day. I had modded it quite heavily- engine, suspension, exhaust, brakes. It was pushing close to 300ps and even beat a couple of STIs at drag races...and then I got to drive one...

[MShift]

If it didnt exist, you wouldnt find these 5+ page threads on 335 vs M3. The point im trying to make goes beyond this argument, much like you described in the wrx vs sti setting. Granted, it does feel like the "complete package" its far from it. It's not a perfect car. There are other reasons why if feels perfect.

[Big Windy]

thanks SS, as a stock 335i owner, its good to know from somebody who is actually an owner. i can't wait to make the jump!

[rai]

A point

You are looking at a $70K M3 price tag and a $45K 335i (with mods) however...the M3 price includes:

CF roof (may like or not but it's at least a grand or two and mainly for looks)
Premium sound (that's $2K)
Technology package (navi, CA, active shocks) that's $3K

I am not saying those features are bad or anything just are they on your 335i? If you spec out a 335i with navi, CA, bluetooth, XM etc..

many $$ are not in the performance but more about the luxury which adds cost but not performance but the M3 is really about being good at both.

I just wonder if a 335i plus Dinan, plus all the features you see on a loaded M3 would be more like $55K?

Or if you look at the other way you can get a M3 for $60K quite easily which makes the price difference just $15K (not $25K).

Still the M3 is more money but not as much and it's got wheels/tires/suspension/CF roof etc.. standard that many people would pay extra for if they were 'options' on the 335i

[lecatrache]

Let's face it, the M3 has a younger target market and a $70,000 price tag..two things that don't usually work well together.

Don't usually? I'd say, almost never. Unless it's one of the 3 options listed here:

1) Rich kid whose parent are buying the car
2) Kid involved in dishonest business
3) Young professional with the priorities upside down

I disagree the target market is yourger audiences. I bet demography of M3 buyers will be all over the place. Younger audiences might more likely to dream about this car, but not exactly buying it. By the way I'm using 25 and under for younger audiences.

[lucid]

The Dinan Chip, like the one the original poster has and the one I am getting makes the 335 engine put out close to the claimed 414 HP of the M3 and way more torque WITHOUT voiding the warranty.

Without voiding whose warranty? BMW's or Dinan's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the warranty is extended by Dinan in that case, not by BMW, which means you need to take it to a Dinan aproved shop and run into who knows what kind of haggling and dealing. Again, correct me if I'm misinformed on this.

[BMW335icDDS]

Without voiding whose warranty? BMW's or Dinan's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the warranty is extended by Dinan in that case, not by BMW, which means you need to take it to a Dinan aproved shop and run into who knows what kind of haggling and dealing. Again, correct me if I'm misinformed on this.

This is correct, but many of the places who are dinan approved shops are dealerships. Also, regarding the 335 vs M3 debate, I had my name on a waitlist for the M3. There are many people who have cross shopped the two. If BMW wasn't worried themselves, why would they underrate the 335's engine? Everyone knows it is producing closer to 340-350 hp and more than 300 torque. The reason why they underrated it was to make space between it and the M3, to give the M3 buyer something to look at so they can say oh, well my car has over 100 more HP! This just isn't true, its just marketing, as the best 3 series before the M3 has never been closer to the M3 in performance. I ended my waitlist on the M3 because my hunch that the 335 with mods would soon perform like a M3 on a street was true with simple mods. Also, the GT-R came, and with my surprise the price tag was the same as a loaded M3, and if I wanted real Veyron like performance I wanted that. Thats why I am on a waitlist for a GT-R now.

[lucid]

This is correct, but many of the places who are dinan approved shops are dealerships.

Are there limitations on coverage such as how much the shop can charge for labor and what types of problems can be taken care of etc? How about you pay first and send us a claim? I've heard that those kind of issues can be rather problematic.

What I like about BMW coverage is that it is almost no questions asked unless you've done something obviously stupid to the car. I don't like to have a gray zone in this type of interaction.

[WCH]

Hmm, You could definitely get the 335 to handle as well as and better than the M3 does. It just means you have to modify the car a bit. Stock for stock, M3 wins. Its not fair to compare a modded car to a stock car. However, if we're talking real world here, you are easily able to modify a 335 past every performance point of the M3. All it takes is money. $25k in money? Probably less.

What people fail to realize is that there is an intangible at work here. The M badge. For anyone who is a BMW fan or an M fan, the badge is, at times, worth as much as any other selling point of the car.

It's not because people like to brag, its because people value the heritage, the performance and the immediate status assignation you receive when you buy an M car. It's hard to describe and often gets confused with elitism and being pompous a-holes, which gives some M3 drivers (specially because they are at the top of their performance class, unlike the M5 and M6, so they care a bit less) their bad rep. Granted some let it go to their heads and do become a-holes.

It's funny now that M3 prices are through the roof and it's actually hard for most to become M3 owners. Let's face it, the M3 has a younger target market and a $70,000 price tag..two things that don't usually work well together. However, that badge sells cars. (not putting down the M3, I love it and the performance, before I get flamed.) Now though, it's becoming even sexier to own an M3 because it's just out of reach for the many that wish they could have one. This whole price thing is only adding fuel to the "M elitism" thing. This right here is why certain dealers can afford to add insane markups and premiums, because it only makes them more desirable (if thats possible).

The M3 vs 335i dilemma will never come to an end. There is a value that no amount of HP or torque or chips or suspensions on the 335 will ever be able to make up for. It is that simple. Find me one real M3 enthusiast with the means to buy one that that has chosen the 335 instead (notice I said chosen, not downgraded, I think they are both amazing cars).

Some of you will agree with me, some of you will not. I'm not saying either car is better, just explaining why it is that M3's are simply more special.

I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.

Well said. My wife has a 335 vert - it's a great car. No doubt one could mod it easily to exceed the HP/tq of the stock M3. And a 335 couple would do even better. However, that's only part of the equation. I just test drove the M3 and it's a different car than the 35 because of the sum of engine, suspension etc. The M3 is a different car.

There used to be a Porsche advertisement that showed a larger engine on one page with the heading about how their competitors increase performance. On the other page, there were pictures of tires, wheels, suspension, transmission, interior and exterior bits from a Porsche - the heading was this is how Porsche increases performance. The point being that more horsepower does not simply make a better car.

In the end, whether it's worth 20K (I built a 335 coupe and an M3 couple with the options I have ordered and got this number) is a personal one. I have decided it is worth it. Others will decide differently. I do know that I will be happy with my M3.

[dawgdog]

A nicely equipped 335 is close to $50000 before mods. Now add Dinan flash = $2000, exhaust $1500, coilovers and sway bars $2500, LSD $3000, 19" forged wheels and tires $3000-$5000. So we are really talking about a $70,00 vrs $60,000 comparison before cosmetic mods like M-tech steering wheel, M-tech package etc. etc. And in the end you don't have that incredible engine. I love my modded 335 but I really like the new M3 as well.

[jm1234]

The M3 was originally a performance oriented version of a 3-series car. That is the M3 heritage that those who speak of heritage refer to. The M car pulled out a few stops in order to get the performance but it was still a 3 series car and that had implications at one point about cost and practicality. The M3 was the best of the "best in class" 3-series. The M5 was not an M3 and it wasn't just about the interior and size. It was about balance and not just driving balance but all the other factors that cause people to buy an entry level sedan and NOT a full bore sports car (with two seats, 10 mpg, limitless noise and limitless price).

Because of competition, the 2008 M3 really pushes the limit of what a 3 series car is. Give me the 335i with the same performance suspension as the M3 and the same chip specs that Dinan will warranty and price it at the same 19% over the 335 (as the '97 M3 sedan was over '97 328, which would be a price of 46,300) and I'd be quite pleased and happy with the new M3 (and put a 330HP NA engine in the 335). The trouble is that BMW has allowed Audi, MB and Lexus to change the definitions of what the M badge means to the 3-series and the M3 car is NOT what it once was in relation to the rest of the series. At some point it's not a 3-series BMW and when it reaches that point then what is it and what happened to the real M3?

Model Base Price MPG Power
97 Sedan
318 26,520 23/31 138
328 33,470 (26% more than the 318) 20/29 190 (38% more power)
M3 39,950 (19% more than the 328) 20/28 240 (26% more power)

02 Coupe
325 29,100 19-20/26-29 184
330 34,990 (20% more than the 325) 17-21/25-30 225 (22% more power)
M3 45,900 (31% more than the 330) 16/23-24 333 (48% more power)

08 Sedan
328 32,400 17-19/25-28 230
335 38,900 (20% more than the 328) 16-17/25-26 300 (30% more power)
M3 53,800 (38% more than the 335) 14/20 414 (38% more power)

You can see that in 1997 the M3 was priced 19% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 328) and output 26% more power with about the same MPG (ie. practical cost to drive).

Fast forward and you see that the 2008 M3 is priced 38% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 335) and outputs "38%" more power with much worse MPG (6K-10K/decade more expensive to drive). That assumes the 335 output is 300HP, if you figure the 335 output is 330HP then the M3 only outputs 25% more power for the same 38% increase in cost and the 335 outputs 43% more power than the 328 for a mere 30% increase in cost (about what an M car should do) and at roughly the same cost to drive.

I feel confident that the handling changes between the 97 M3 and 97 328 are the same as between the 08 M3 and 335. BMW is asking more and more for less and less differential between the cars. In addition they are asking that premium for a car that has significantly less daily driver practicality as the rest of the 3-series cars. Anyone arguing that price and practicality don't mater to "M" drivers is clueless to at least *some* of the heritage because you could always get a better performance car than an M3, just not necessarily one that seats four, has the same purchase price and has the same cost to operate. None of this considers the fact that the 335 basically has an engine in it that can be placed to within the same performance spec as the M3 with the same reliability (as least the same reliability as determined by what is guaranteed) and with a very minimal "install" risk. I think these factors play a role in why *some* people compare the 335 to the M3 (or think it should be the M3) and why some people that could buy either still choose the 335. Some people really do want a 3-series car and I'm not sure the 08 M3 is that. I think that those who will pay a 38% premium for the "M" and justify it based on the "heritage" don't really understand the entirety of that heritage. If they did, then why from the perspective of the M3 heritage are they willing to pay so much for so little improvement and with so much sacrifice in practicality too?

Just my thoughts on the subject as someone considering both and who could pay cash for either. I think the M3 is a great car. I think it's by far best in class. I'm not sure it's a 3-series BMW and I don't think that the other cars in the M3's class bear any relation to the 3-series competition (didn't the four in A4 used to mean 4 cylinders not twice that many). Can BMW put an M3 badge on anything and will people still consider it 3-series? Will the M3 go the way of NASCAR "stock" cars? I hope not, I want an M3.

[///Mantis]

:love: the OP and his review

[cryptkeeper]

A nicely equipped 335 is close to $50000 before mods. Now add Dinan flash = $2000, exhaust $1500, coilovers and sway bars $2500, LSD $3000, 19" forged wheels and tires $3000-$5000. So we are really talking about a $70,00 vrs $60,000 comparison before cosmetic mods like M-tech steering wheel, M-tech package etc. etc. And in the end you don't have that incredible engine. I love my modded 335 but I really like the new M3 as well.

I think this is what I think about the most when comparing the 335 to the M3. If you buy a 335i, you might try and spend that type of money to make it closer or better than an M3, whereas the M3 might seem just fine stock. I looked at an AW M3 inside the showroom at the dealer yesterday and you just get a sense that there is something more there than the 335's sitting outside in the rain. Dealer wouldn't let me sit in it though :(

[BMW335icDDS]

Well for me, I am just looking to chip the 335 which would only be like 2k. That alone makes it close to being as fast ina straight line to a M3. I have the GT-R on order rather than the M3 for pure speed.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

I think this is what I think about the most when comparing the 335 to the M3. If you buy a 335i, you might try and spend that type of money to make it closer or better than an M3, whereas the M3 might seem just fine stock. I looked at an AW M3 inside the showroom at the dealer yesterday and you just get a sense that there is something more there than the 335's sitting outside in the rain. Dealer wouldn't let me sit in it though :(

The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show. :)

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce

[silvrevo]

I cant wait to have a few runs with one...........

I just will feel bad when I neck the M3 out,,,,,,,,,Im just no that type of asshole to gloryify it.

All in all BMW did a very nice price point between the 2 cars.

Money is money and some have more, some have less.

[cryptkeeper]

The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

Bruce

The dealer was actually telling me that he felt the 335 was a better buy. I thought there job was to try and get you into the most expensive vehicle possible :confused2. He said he planned on getting the 335 next as it was a perfect DD, whereas the M3 may not be. I'll save my judgement for once I actually drive both. Either one's sure to be a blast compared to my boat though.

[southlight]

The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show. :)

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce
Understatement is a good thing. I just don't see how a 911 in general can fit that way of thinking. :confused2


Best regards, south

[OzStriker]

Does anyone have a couple of comparison photos showing the underneath if an M3 and a 335?

[devo]

The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show. :)

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce

Sometimes less is more. However, if you like the 997S, why do you not like the 997C4S? The only difference is the slightly wider hips, whch are maybe 17mm wider (total width).

[ChrisFastM3]

Don't usually? I'd say, almost never. Unless it's one of the 3 options listed here:

1) Rich kid whose parent are buying the car
2) Kid involved in dishonest business
3) Young professional with the priorities upside down

I disagree the target market is yourger audiences. I bet demography of M3 buyers will be all over the place. Younger audiences might more likely to dream about this car, but not exactly buying it. By the way I'm using 25 and under for younger audiences.

I definately fall into category 3 :readthethread:
Only I own a home,
own a successful company,
single (it's where I like to stay at this point in my life),
still live well within my means, &
travel pretty often,
so why not :confused2

[OzStriker]

it's days is numbered

As are those of the English language, apparently. :lol:

[Keto]

Until BMW make the M3 faster than the M5 and M6, it's days is numbered

M3 is faster around the 'ring than any other stock BMW (save the CSL, E92 CSL here we come), and that's all that matters to us badge whores!

For me, the M3 wins for several reasons, not in any particular order.

1) Better DD than 335 -- EDC beats any stock or aftermarket solution for the 335 as I can be more comfortable on bad roads and then change to better performance at the push of a button.

2) Mods never work out for me, ever. Cars, computers, what not. I am always the guy with issues. Plus, no local shops impress me enough for me to trust spending $10k+ on chip, exhaust, brakes, suspension to simulate an M3.

3) Enhanced premium sound -- local audio shops suck. I installed new speakers, subwoofer and amp myself in the E46. a/d/s, JL audio, good stuff. Maintenance has been a PITA. Don't plan on doing that again.

4) Better track performance -- I don't care about stoplight races against kids. Reckless driving actually means something to me. Plan on doing track school and events.

5) Leather. Owns the 335. Extended leather beats it silly.

6) Looks -- CF roof, distinctive color, better trim, better stock wheels (that are *forged* which is a necessity here)

7) DCT -- mmmmm can't wait.

8) Total Cost of Ownership -- I plan to sell the car in 3-4 years (likely for another M3), and the E92 will likely be cheaper to barely more expensive to own over that time than a well-modded 335. This, of course, depends on residuals, but mods add cost without adding resale value, especially in my market.

9) High-revving, great sounding. MMM good.

Both are great cars. The target markets for both are much older than the average forum age here -- don't be fooled. The most vocal agitators for both sides of the 335 modded vs M3 debate tend to be the younger members of the forum, imho.

[OzStriker]

+1 to Keto.

335 owners, feel free to debate the topic, but posts like that one from MarkNg335i just make you sound childish and envious, which we know the vast majority of you are not.

Bruce your observations and thoughts are always appreciated!

[M3aHOLIC84]

i cant wait till a 300hp 1 series starts whoopin on these 3 series owners so they will start to shut up. then they will have someone else in their own league to beef with instead of stepping into big dog territory lol

[par4bmw]

8) Total Cost of Ownership -- I plan to sell the car in 3-4 years (likely for another M3), and the E92 will likely be cheaper to barely more expensive to own over that time than a well-modded 335. This, of course, depends on residuals, but mods add cost without adding resale value, especially in my market.
.


Great points Keto. #8 has not been talked about much but is so right on target. If owning a vehicle for three years or less, heavy mods kill you in total cost of ownership due to the extremely high depreciation.

[e46e92love]

Don't usually? I'd say, almost never. Unless it's one of the 3 options listed here:

1) Rich kid whose parent are buying the car
2) Kid involved in dishonest business
3) Young professional with the priorities upside down

I disagree the target market is yourger audiences. I bet demography of M3 buyers will be all over the place. Younger audiences might more likely to dream about this car, but not exactly buying it. By the way I'm using 25 and under for younger audiences.

Can I create a 4th category for argument sake: young professional you started his own company that exploded.

[consolidated]

335i fans should spend their time defending against 135i buyers, they cost less, offer better performance and are going to be more trackworthy than their 335i's. Really, if I wanted a sporty coupe, I get a 135i if I couldn't afford an M3. I think they look great, it's got a heck of lot more character and a 335i.

[lecatrache]

I definately fall into category 3 :readthethread:
Only I own a home,
own a successful company,
single (it's where I like to stay at this point in my life),
still live well within my means, &
travel pretty often,
so why not :confused2

Can I create a 4th category for argument sake: young professional you started his own company that exploded.

ChrisFastM3, you're probably more like in the Category 4 that e46e92love is reminding me I forgot. I agree - however that Category is less than 1% of the total. So, a toast for the two of you successful young entrepeneurs. Keep it up!

[OzStriker]

dump ass?

Can someone translate that into the English language please?

Oh, and double posting FTL :D

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/769/fightuc3.gif

[kbk_75]

Thanks to the OP for the comparison! I think it's quite sad when people come online and start justifying their personal choices and getting het-up over them. Nobody gives a shit whether you can or can't afford an M3, a GTR or a bloody Lamborghini. You make your own choices for your own reasons, be happy with them, but quit trying to stuff them down others' throats!

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Understatement is a good thing. I just don't see how a 911 in general can fit that way of thinking. :confused2


Best regards, south

OK, that made me grin. :)

Point made, but what I was trying to highlight was that the manufacturers tend to add mere frippery to the base styling, from my point of view.

Yeah, I know you need to add more air for increased cooling, etc., but those mods are often highlighted.

Perhaps I should also explain that in general I like the Q-ship idea. In fact, I've long held the belief that the perfect car may be a Checker Marathon (in yellow, of course) with a Z06 chassis and powertrain. :)

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Sometimes less is more. However, if you like the 997S, why do you not like the 997C4S? The only difference is the slightly wider hips, whch are maybe 17mm wider (total width).

I do like the C4S. In fact, I like almost everything Porsche currently makes. It's just that I like the C2 (or C2S) better than the rest of the 911s from a styling point of view.

Bruce

Edit: PS - I also like the styling of the new M3. It's just that I prefer the styling of the base coupes.

[scottp999]

The original post is a great write-up. If I could justify the purchase I would get the M3, but I can't and will stick with my tuned 335. I'm just glad that BMW made such a nice twin-turbo engine so I could get some speed in a 3 sereis BMW. My prior was a 323CI with 170hp.

I bet it will be interesting when M3's and 335's pull next to each other at stop lights. Each person will be wondering if the other car is faster. Of course none of us street race ever, right?

Enjoy your M3's, they are awesome beasts!

OP - do you have a Gtech where you could try to confirm your feelings about performance and post the runs?

[JEllis]

As referenced in my title this is a COMPARISON based on my objective opinion.

A few days back a demo M3 pulled into my local dealer's lot. I have a very close friend in sales at this dealership so she called me and we scheduled a test drive.

I currently own a 2008 335i and 2004 E46 M3 - here are the specs on each to give you a frame of reference:

2008 335i
Sports Package (aside from the seats and wheels this includes a slightly stiffer set-up, matched shocks, and a slightly lower ride height)
DINAN re-flash (increases to 384 HP 412 ft/lb torque)
DINAN Exhaust (increase to 390 HP and 418 ft/lb torque)

2004 E46 M3
H & R Coil overs
H & R front & rear sways
DINAN throttle bodies
DINAN exhaust
DINAN 3.91 rear differential (increases to 296 ft/lb torque)
DINAN cold air intake

2008 E92 M3
Bone stock - by now you guys should know all the specs so I am not going to bother listing them

My 335i smokes my E46 M3 in HP and torque especially.

When I fired up the E92 M3 today the first thing you feel and hear is that sick ass V8. I mean it is unreal fellas.

So I pulled out of the lot...drove it around locally for about 15 minutes not really getting on it. I wanted to warm it up to a nominal temperature before putting it to the test.

Here are my immediate observations. The stock suspension hands down beats my sports suspension without question. It is much tighter and there is about 50% less cabin roll with the stock M3 suspension compared to the 335i stock suspension. Neither of these though match my H & R set-up on my E46. That set-up is track tight.

Anyway...the next immediate observation is the throttle response. Of course with the new M3 you feel power delivered even if you breath on the throttle. This is something I absolutely hate with the 335i twin turbos. While BMW did an excellent job of creating almost ZERO turbo spool...the fact remains that it does spool and therefor there is a very slight delay in power delivery. Not the case with the 2008 M3 of course. I loved this.

My 3rd immediate observation is with respects to braking. The 2008 M3 again really beats my 335i handily. However...I will say that I did not think the new M3's breaks were are good as my stock brakes on my E46 M3 which surprised me.

Ok...now to the power and the torque. This is where I was surprised most. In the 2008 M3 because the power delivery is immediate I had the perception of it being quicker...but...it took longer to accelerate to higher speeds than in my tuned 335i. The top of the power band from 2nd through 3rd and into 4th is where you feel every bit of the raw power of the M3 as well as the 335i. Between these gears...I was quicker in my 335i...but...and you have to hear what I am saying here...because the 335i stock suspension is not nearly as tight as the M3 and because the 335i twin turbos are so muffled compared to the throaty roar of the M3's V8 you do not FEEL it is quicker. But I could easily see my speed times were quicker than the M3.

I am not going to go over interior differences because those differences are truly subjective to what someone does or does not like. My comparison is based solely on performance.

So here is the big question. Is it worth it? Again this is a subjective question because perception equates to value. We all have different perceptions and therefore will equate value differently.

But...if I am objective in how I make this decision then there is a simple answer.

My 335i cost with the tuned turbo (DINAN) and the DINAN exhaust is roughly $45K. I still have another $8K I will put into the 335i including additional performance mods and aesthetic mods.

The stock 2008 M3 I tested was $70K. A difference of $25K.

In my opinion for a difference of $25K I want to blow the doors off of my cousin the 335i...but that isn't the case.

But...subjectively...I LOVE THE V8 in the new M3. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that engine...so to me...the price is easily justified.

This is my review for what it is worth. To all of you who are awaiting your arrival of your M3...congratulations. It is one amazing car. I will have to patiently await my turn in line as I have been doing now for the past few months.

SS

I really struggled with the same question. And the Dinan tunes really got me thinking. But, in the end it came down to this for me. The M3 has both the power and unique looks (weather you like them or not) right out of the box. To make the 335 both as quick (in a straight line) and as unique looking your talking about a Dinan tune, Dinan oil cooler, suspension, aero kit or other similar kit, new wheels, new exhaust, and then cost of having some or all of this work done by someone else. In the end the price for either car was very similar and with the M3 I have something truly unique (yes 50K M3's will be in the US eventually but just think about how many E92 328's and 335's there will be in the US in the end)....

Jason

[ChrisFastM3]

Can I create a 4th category for argument sake: young professional you started his own company that exploded.

Deal :happyanim:

[ChrisFastM3]

ChrisFastM3, you're probably more like in the Category 4 that e46e92love is reminding me I forgot. I agree - however that Category is less than 1% of the total. So, a toast for the two of you successful young entrepeneurs. Keep it up!

Thanks for the kind words :thumbsup:

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Thanks to the OP for the comparison! I think it's quite sad when people come online and start justifying their personal choices and getting het-up over them. Nobody gives a shit whether you can or can't afford an M3, a GTR or a bloody Lamborghini. You make your own choices for your own reasons, be happy with them, but quit trying to stuff them down others' throats!

Well said.

Look, there's a central fact here that no one has commented on yet, and the fact is that if you want the best, you're going to have to pay a lot more money for it. It doesn't matter what we're discussing.

Want a good one-carat diamond for that engagement ring? Maybe two grand. Want an essentially flawless high clarity blue-white diamond? You're going to be into the 5-digit arena.

Want a really good shotgun for, say, shooting skeet? Winchester, Remington and others will fill your needs with extremely good products for $500 to $700. Want the best? Maybe a Purdy? You're looking at anywhere from ten to 50 grand. Or more!

Will a Bic Click be OK to sign that charge slip, or do you need the Mont Blanc folks to help you out?

Want to get wherever you want to go ultra reliably? Hyundai has some really good stuff for really short money. Want a feral exhaust snarl, stupid speed and all the flash of a lightning bolt in your four-wheeled conveyance? Ferrari will be glad to take care of you.

There are essential reasons for this, ranging from cost of materials, cost of labor (you don't get some jamoke who just fell off the turnip truck doing the inlays on your over-and-under 12-gauge), cost of engineering and development talent, actual content of the product, and of course if you're at the top of the market they know you can pay more. It's part of the exclusivity.

Now, I'm not saying the M3 is the best car on the planet, but it is arguably the best of the 3 series. Want a really good 3 series bimmer, and by the way a terrific car? We can get you out the door for around 35 grand. Want the best?

Whoops.

You see the deal, I hope. Myriad product changes with engineering costs spread over fewer units, more expensive materials, blah blah blah.

Is the M3 (or the flawless diamond, the Purdy, the Ferarri or the Mont Blanc) worth the Money? Well duh! You can decide for yourself, but always remember, if you want the best, you aren't going to get it for a few percent more.

Bruce

[dechoong]

BMW wanted to compete with the G35 and the IS350 so it slap two turbo on the 330 and called it 335, but it didn't realize that they have created a beast that will threaten the M3 and it's "heritage". They realize that and try to limit the 335 by welding the 08 dif.

You guys talk about the M3 like it's some super car or something. The M3 is the slowest and the cheapest of all the M. A M3 might be something a few years ago but now it's just a overprice 3 series with a "M" badge. With the 335i tuning potential, it is pushing the M3 right out of the 3 series. The M3 can't widen the power gap between itself and the 335 because it will threaten the M5 and M6. Until BMW make the M3 faster than the M5 and M6, it's days is numbered

Turbochargers aside, are you even aware the 330 and 335 don't share the same engine?

Sure, a heavily modified 335i will likely out run a M3 on the street in a straight line, but you are missing the point if you think M3 is only about drag racing. Does the various comparison tests between the C63 AMG and M3 remind you of anything? You don't see BMW Motorsports challenging the ALMS GT2 class in a 335 do you?

The fact is, the M3 is, and will be the pinnacle of 3 series engineering for BMW.

[e46e92love]

ChrisFastM3, you're probably more like in the Category 4 that e46e92love is reminding me I forgot. I agree - however that Category is less than 1% of the total. So, a toast for the two of you successful young entrepeneurs. Keep it up!

awwww.......shucks. Thanks:thanks:

[a burrito]

Don't think you're all that because you daddy bought you a M3 boy. These M3owner think they're high class because they drive a $70k car:bellyroll.
Most of the 335 owner can afford a M3 anytime but we choose not to because it's overrated. $70k is nothing to me kangaroo boy..i rather spend my money on something better like a GT-R.

LOL wtf is a kangaroo boy? hahahaha

do you know the difference between a tranny and a real girl? or do you not care about that too? :happyanim::mad0259::thumbsup:

[OzStriker]

I wonder if I should tell this guy I actually paid closer to USD$170,000 for my M3? :lol:

[RandyB]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/Randy_B/026.jpg

/thread.

:clap:

[OzStriker]

:clap:

[ersin]

Randy,

Wow, that picture. :drool:

It's forums like that this that really make Internet access worth it. :lol: If it's raw performance that floats your boat then don't get an M3. Simple. You don't have to go ranting about it on an M3 forum. But, everyone's taste is different. To some of us the M3 is greatest car in the world. No other car can touch it at any price. And don't ever forget: us M3 owner kangaroo boys really are better than everyone else!:happyanim:

[Sick Speed]

UPDATE - Read original post

[jaiman]

UPDATE - Read original post

So you were running while keeping both cars under 5k rpm? The 335 has a redline at 7000 rpm while the M3 is 8400. So, you're using more of the 335's power band. To be fair you should have been shifting it at 4200.

That said what was the point of this test? Do you expect to be street racing lots of guys in M3s who haven't broken them in yet? Why don't you go to a drag strip and run a 1/4 mile in your car? At least we could compare that to the 1/4s that magazines have run in M3s that have been broken in.

I get that people are very excited to compare tuned 335 to M3, but can't we at least wait till the M3 can run to its potential?

[OzStriker]

http://www.furboajerboa.com/assets/images/radio/ChickenTwisties.jpg

[Sick Speed]

So you were running while keeping both cars under 5k rpm? The 335 has a redline at 7000 rpm while the M3 is 8400. So, you're using more of the 335's power band. To be fair you should have been shifting it at 4200.

That said what was the point of this test? Do you expect to be street racing lots of guys in M3s who haven't broken them in yet? Why don't you go to a drag strip and run a 1/4 mile in your car? At least we could compare that to the 1/4s that magazines have run in M3s that have been broken in.

I get that people are very excited to compare tuned 335 to M3, but can't we at least wait till the M3 can run to its potential?

I don't street race. Races are for the tracks only. The point was to see which car pulled quicker through 3rd gear. Had we more room we would have taken it through the top of 4th which is where both cars experience max output. We simply did not have the room.

Both cars have similar mileage right around 2K miles.

Some of you need to remember in my original post at the very bottom I state I am waiting my turn to place my order for my 2008 M3. I will be an owner too to add to the stable and I am NOT bashing the new M3.

It is quantitative evidence that the new M3 is not delivering as much punch as I would have hoped considering the price. Again...this is my opinion based on my personal observations. Like I said in my earlier post for the price difference I want more power delivery.

I am not sure I follow what you mean when you say I should have shifted at 4200 RPM. I reach max torque at 4300 RPM and max HP at 5700 RPM with the DINAN re-flash calibration.

SS

[dawgdog]

I have a heavily modded 335 and no way does it handle as well as the M3. The achiles heel is not having an LSD. And there have been nightmares putting these in the 335. Without an LSD it is just impossible to keep the wheels planted. And from 80 on I bet the M3 pulls away. The one real advantage to the modded 335 is that instantaneous torque - kind of addicting.

[lucid]

I don't street race. Races are for the tracks only. The point was to see which car pulled quicker through 3rd gear. Had we more room we would have taken it through the top of 4th which is where both cars experience max output. We simply did not have the room.

Both cars have similar mileage right around 2K miles.

Some of you need to remember in my original post at the very bottom I state I am waiting my turn to place my order for my 2008 M3. I will be an owner too to add to the stable and I am NOT bashing the new M3.

It is quantitative evidence that the new M3 is not delivering as much punch as I would have hoped considering the price. Again...this is my opinion based on my personal observations. Like I said in my earlier post for the price difference I want more power delivery.

I am not sure I follow what you mean when you say I should have shifted at 4200 RPM. I reach max torque at 4300 RPM and max HP at 5700 RPM with the DINAN re-flash calibration.

SS

The question is at what rpm in 3rd gear did the M3 shift? At redline or at 5000 rpms? (I am assuming the modded 335 shifted at redline in 3rd gear).

[jaiman]

I am not sure I follow what you mean when you say I should have shifted at 4200 RPM. I reach max torque at 4300 RPM and max HP at 5700 RPM with the DINAN re-flash calibration.

SS


in the OP I thought you were saying that both cars were shifting at 5000 rpm. My point was that 5000 rpm represents a larger part of the 335's powerband. If you were actually shifting at redline in the 335, while the M3 was shifting at 5000 rpm, all you've done is design the worst test in automotive test history.

Though you've proven that a short-shifted M3 is slower than a fully revved, tuned 335. A hypothesis I'm sure most would have agreed with before you ran the cars.

here's the line that is confusing me:

"The 335i took the M3 by almost an entire car length up to 80 MPH to 5K RPM mid way through 3rd and was still pulling away before we had to hit the breaks."

[Sick Speed]

in the OP I thought you were saying that both cars were shifting at 5000 rpm. My point was that 5000 rpm represents a larger part of the 335's powerband. If you were actually shifting at redline in the 335, while the M3 was shifting at 5000 rpm, all you've done is design the worst test in automotive test history.

Though you've proven that a short-shifted M3 is slower than a fully revved, tuned 335. A hypothesis I'm sure most would have agreed with before you ran the cars.

here's the line that is confusing me:

"The 335i took the M3 by almost an entire car length up to 80 MPH to 5K RPM mid way through 3rd and was still pulling away before we had to hit the breaks."

I see what you are saying but I am only referencing my pull and not the M3's. I have no idea where he was RPM wise but I believe what you are saying is that had the M3 had more distance to reach its peek then the run would have been more level and with this I agree which is why I stated I wish we had more distance.

My E46 M3 revs as high as the new 2008 M3 and I need a lot of straight to get the max output you are referring to.

As I said...we simply did not have the space. All of that aside it does not negate the fact that the 335i pulled significantly harder and outdistanced the M.

Now if we were at 100 and began the pull I am certain the results would be in favor of the M3. I will be taking the 335i to Sebring in the not too distant future and one of the other members has the E92 M3 (broken in) and we have already discussed doing some trial runs.

First...I have to get the set up on my 335i squared away and THAT is a PITA because I am waiting on a set of Volks from Japan before I install the coil overs and sways.

Again...the tech driving the M3 is as experienced as they come and even he said he was surprised with the results.

SS

[Sick Speed]

The question is at what rpm in 3rd gear did the M3 shift? At redline or at 5000 rpms? (I am assuming the modded 335 shifted at redline in 3rd gear).

I shifted at 5800 RPM. Keep in mind, too, that I have the stupid idiot stock CDV (changing out soon) and the stock shifter and my shifts feel like marshmallows. Due to the stock CDV and weak ass stock shift kit of the 335i it is IMPOSSIBLE to transition gears without feeling the split second hesitation in clutch engagement with either an over or under revved throttle. You cannot avoid this with the stock 335i CDV and stock shifter.

The stock E92 M3 CDV and stock shift unit are head and shoulders above the 335i stock parts.

Once I install the SSK and replace the CDV with a much larger opening I will be much happier.

SS

[lucid]

I see what you are saying but I am only referencing my pull and not the M3's. I have no idea where he was RPM wise but I believe what you are saying is that had the M3 had more distance to reach its peek then the run would have been more level and with this I agree which is why I stated I wish we had more distance.

Why would you need a lot of road to get max power output from either car? In what gear did you guys start?

I shifted at 5800 RPM. Keep in mind, too, that I have the stupid idiot stock CDV (changing out soon) and the stock shifter and my shifts feel like marshmallows.

Why did you shift early?

It is important to know the rpm at which the M3 shifted from 3rd to 4th gear. If the car was not broken in, the driver might not have revved it to redline.

Regardless, any race between a modded 335 and a stock M3 should be close--even from a rolling start. So, I am not surprised at the outcome.

[Sick Speed]

Why would you need a lot of road to get max power output from either car? In what gear did you guys start?



Why did you shift early?

It is important to know the rpm at which the M3 shifted from 3rd to 4th gear. If the car was not broken in, the driver might not have revved it to redline.

Regardless, any race between a modded 335 and a stock M3 should be close--even from a rolling start. So, I am not surprised at the outcome.

Typo...I shifted at 6800 RPM. I have fat fingers. Like I said earlier...I have no idea what the M shifted.

SS

[E82tt6]

Why would you need a lot of road to get max power output from either car? In what gear did you guys start?



Why did you shift early?

It is important to know the rpm at which the M3 shifted from 3rd to 4th gear. If the car was not broken in, the driver might not have revved it to redline.

Regardless, any race between a modded 335 and a stock M3 should be close--even from a rolling start. So, I am not surprised at the outcome.

I don't think they got into 4th. He was saying they ran from a 20mph roll up to 80mph.

[Sick Speed]

I don't think they got into 4th. He was saying they ran from a 20mph roll up to 80mph.

Exactly - we never made it to 4th.

[kbk_75]

I wonder if I should tell this guy I actually paid closer to USD$170,000 for my M3? :lol:

Err...I see your 170K and raise you 50k! :confused0068: :dance:

[OzStriker]

Err...I see your 170K and raise you 50k! :confused0068: :dance:

:respect: