Dyno Results

[edlms]

Here's the charts.
The mech changed up at 8250 (not 8400).

I'm not very mech/tech minded, and my reason for doing this dyno is to form the basis for my future mods.

As per my other thread on the GruppeM CAI and Exhaust, I've been advised to let the mods bed down for around 500km before doing another dyno test to show the improvements to HP and Torque (if any).

Cheers

Update - there appears to be a modest increase of 7bhp (at peak) and around 5-18bhp across the rev range.
:happyanim:

ps didn't get the printout for hp at the wheels... sorry.

cheers

[gorun]

Is that good, bad or about right? All these dynos are different and the they come up with 3 or 4 power readings. Just cant make sense of it...

[cowmoo32]

Beautiful! Look at that torque curve...I love it. I'm glad someone is taking the initiative to do a base line and then more after the mods are installed.

[lucid]

Is that good, bad or about right? All these dynos are different and the they come up with 3 or 4 power readings. Just cant make sense of it...

The torque readings are pretty much in line with the results reported by RRI (see thread):

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136529

Download the detailed spreadsheet in PS and Kgm units and read the values from the Corrected Power and Corrected Torque columns, which take pressure and temp differences into account. Then compare those numbers to the corrected figures on the posted output sheet. You'll see:

Corrected Wheel Torque/Total Reduction:
RRI: 37.3 Kgm @3911 rpm
OP: 37.2 Kgm @3965 rpm

If you compare the wheel torque/total reduction readings over the entire rev range, they are in agreement, so I am assuming the OP's chart does not factor in any transmission losses for the torque reading.

However, there is something funky with the power figures. As you can see in the dissipated power reading, they are factoring in a %10 loss to "guess" engine power. If we bypass the engine reading, and just apply the temp and hum correction factor to get the standardize power reading from the 325.3hp figure, we get 335.8 peak hp.

Corrected Wheel Power:
RRI: 374.3 @7518 rpm
OP: 335.8 @7570 rpm

I don't understand why the wt numbers agree, but whp don't. I guess the wt numbers also include the 10% loss factor. In which case, the OP's numbers are about 10% off in general, which can be explained by:

1. RRI uses a hub dyno, whereas the OP used rollers.
2. OP's run was not close to steady-state (I don't know enough about the specifics of dyno run methodology to judge if a 5.8 sec run constitutes steady-state in this case).
3. Instrument differences.

[KINGLEH]

im still waiting for some dynojet results.....


we have one where i work.... but i dont have my M yet.....


i will be on the dyno the day mine rolls off the lot... then after brake in... then after each mod.....

[southlight]

i will be on the dyno the day mine rolls off the lot... then after brake in... then after each mod.....
That'll make you member of the year. :thumsup: I wouldn't dyno a car before break-in completed though.


Best regards, south

[KINGLEH]

i have a specific break in i do to all my new motors.... to seat the rings.... takes about a hour.. then a oil change..... then im easy on all the other parts that need to be broken in.. the tranny.. dif and such..... but dyno pull isnt hard on any of that stuff....


you can also brake in a motor on the dyno... ive done this over 10 times.... every one showing good reliability and very strong power....

[edlms]

Lucid - thanks for analysis. i don't fully comprehend the intricacies of dyno runs and the readings but you've enlightened me a fair bit, especially the differences between RRI's data and mine.

hope to see some HP improvements when i do my next dyno...

cheers

[PencilGeek]

That'll make you member of the year. :thumsup: I wouldn't dyno a car before break-in completed though.


Best regards, south


I've always been curious how street car break-in differs from race motor break-in. I worked in the racing industry for a few years in my youth (still friends with all those guys) and we had a 1000hp Dyno. Whether street or racing motor, we broke them in on the dyno. According to us, the dyno was the best way to break it in because you could vary the load and run at different RPMs. Technically, a motor was broken-in when the rings were seated -- which is determined by pulling the spark plugs and looking into the cylinders with an endoscope. If the cylinders and pistons were dry (no oil), the motor was broken-in. Then we'd change the initial oil, and do the power runs. Same on street or racing motors.

So I've always wondered why a break-in needed to be 1200 miles -- when it could be as quickly as a few hours.

/PG

[PencilGeek]

i have a specific break in i do to all my new motors.... to seat the rings.... takes about a hour.. then a oil change..... then im easy on all the other parts that need to be broken in.. the tranny.. dif and such..... but dyno pull isnt hard on any of that stuff....


you can also brake in a motor on the dyno... ive done this over 10 times.... every one showing good reliability and very strong power....

LOL...I didn't read this before I wrote my response.

Ditto.

[PencilGeek]

Lucid - thanks for analysis. i don't fully comprehend the intricacies of dyno runs and the readings but you've enlightened me a fair bit, especially the differences between RRI's data and mine.

hope to see some HP improvements when i do my next dyno...

cheers

So these were baseline figures -- not including the exhaust?

/PG

[ChitownM3]

Guys, the HP is lower than other dynoes because whoever dynoed the car let off before 8000 rpm. Looks like they let off around 7750 rpm. Doesn't this car make its peak HP at 8300 rpm?!?!?

[PencilGeek]

Guys, the HP is lower than other dynoes because whoever dynoed the car let off before 8000 rpm. Looks like they let off around 7750 rpm. Doesn't this car make its peak HP at 8300 rpm?!?!?

According to the dyno chart, it had already reached max HP around 7600. There's no point in going up to 8300 when you're already on the downswing.

/PG

[ChitownM3]

According to the dyno chart, it had already reached max HP around 7600. There's no point in going up to 8300 when you're already on the downswing.

/PG

If you look at the actual chart, it's obvious the throttle was cut at 7600 rpms, thats why the max was reached there. Look at the actual chart.

[PencilGeek]

If you look at the actual chart, it's obvious the throttle was cut at 7600 rpms, thats why the max was reached there. Look at the actual chart.

How can you tell the throttle was cut? That's not the way you dyno something on a motor dyno (vs. chassis dyno). I've been present for approximately 100 motor dyno tests. Granted, I've only witnessed a few chassis dyno runs...and therefore know much less about them...but the process was exactly the same when I saw it being done.

On a motor dyno, all power runs are performed at full throttle. You apply more load to the motor until the RPM reduces to the desired measurement point (2000, 3000, 4000, etc.). Once the RPM is at the desired location, you take the TQ/HP measurement and store it. Change the load, to the next desired RPM, take another reading. Continue this process through the entire RPM range until you find max HP; go a little beyond that...and call it a day. Since HP is a direct function of TQ and RPM, there's no point in pushing the motor much beyond the point where you found max HP.

/PG

[lucid]

Guys, the HP is lower than other dynoes because whoever dynoed the car let off before 8000 rpm. Looks like they let off around 7750 rpm. Doesn't this car make its peak HP at 8300 rpm?!?!?

Look at the charts from RRI. They have max hp at the wheels @7821 rpm. The max power at the crank could be achieved at a higher rpm, but the transmission losses go up with engine speed, so if the crank gains are very small between 7821 and 8300, the tranmission losses could trump them, and you see what these charts tell us at the wheels.

[lucid]

On a motor dyno, all power runs are performed at full throttle. You apply more load to the motor until the RPM reduces to the desired measurement point (2000, 3000, 4000, etc.). Once the RPM is at the desired location, you take the TQ/HP measurement and store it. Change the load, to the next desired RPM, take another reading. Continue this process through the entire RPM range until you find max HP; go a little beyond that...and call it a day. Since HP is a direct function of TQ and RPM, there's no point in pushing the motor much beyond the point where you found max HP.


That seems to be the description of a steady-state test. How long would that normally take? Not sure if they did that here. Note the acceleration time of 5.8 sec noted at the bottom of the sheet?

[ChitownM3]

Doesn't make sense to me. I thought drivetrain loss was just a percentage, so if the engine makes its peak power at 8300rpm then it should also make its peak power to the wheels at 8300rpm. I did take a look at the RRI graphs and it does seem like power drops off at 8k rpm. But if you look at the OP's graph, the graph reaches its peak and then drops substantially leading me to believe they let off on the gas. I think the HP coulda gone up quite a bit more if they went up to 8300rpm.

[lucid]

Doesn't make sense to me. I thought drivetrain loss was just a percentage, so if the engine makes its peak power at 8300rpm then it should also make its peak power to the wheels at 8300rpm. I did take a look at the RRI graphs and it does seem like power drops off at 8k rpm. But if you look at the OP's graph, the graph reaches its peak and then drops substantially leading me to believe they let off on the gas. I think the HP coulda gone up quite a bit more if they went up to 8300rpm.

Percentage implies a linear relationship between engine speed and loss. That is an approximation. I doubt that it is perfectly linear. At higher engine speeds lubricants behave differently (more heat to be dissipated), and friction losses most likely do not scale up linearly. I don't know this for sure though.

The power in the RRI tests peak around 7821 rpms--not at 8000 rpms.

It is possible that this was an acceleration test and they let go off the gas a bit too early. It would be good to have a few more data points after the peak to verify that the peak has indeed been experienced.

[lucid]

I've always been curious how street car break-in differs from race motor break-in. I worked in the racing industry for a few years in my youth (still friends with all those guys) and we had a 1000hp Dyno. Whether street or racing motor, we broke them in on the dyno. According to us, the dyno was the best way to break it in because you could vary the load and run at different RPMs. Technically, a motor was broken-in when the rings were seated -- which is determined by pulling the spark plugs and looking into the cylinders with an endoscope. If the cylinders and pistons were dry (no oil), the motor was broken-in. Then we'd change the initial oil, and do the power runs. Same on street or racing motors.

So I've always wondered why a break-in needed to be 1200 miles -- when it could be as quickly as a few hours.


1. In the dyno break-in scenario you've outlined, things are tightly controlled and monitored/measured by competent people. There is no way your average consumer can do that properly driving around on the roads. And if they make a mistake, the whole engine can be trashed.
2. Other parts of the drivetrain need to be broken-in as well, which can't be done on an engine dyno.
3. Race engines are for racing. Meaning, they are designed and built differently, and have a significantly different life expectation than passenger cars.

[08AWM3]

That red line is the reason I bought this car. Nice dyno.

[PencilGeek]

1. In the dyno break-in scenario you've outlined, things are tightly controlled and monitored/measured by competent people. There is no way your average consumer can do that properly driving around on the roads. And if they make a mistake, the whole engine can be trashed.
2. Other parts of the drivetrain need to be broken-in as well, which can't be done on an engine dyno.
3. Race engines are for racing. Meaning, they are designed and built differently, and have a significantly different life expectation than passenger cars.

We all agree that street and racing motors are different. I guess I was making two other points, and probably worded it poorly.
1. On the dyno, we broke in street and racing motors the same. Same methodology.
2. Whether street or racing, we considered the motor broken in when the rings were seated properly -- as witnessed when you stick an endoscope down the cylinder and take a look.

Of course other drive train components need to be broken in as well. That's why I chose my words very carefully by only discussing the break in of the motor.

/PG

[lucid]

We all agree that street and racing motors are different. I guess I was making two other points, and probably worded it poorly.
1. On the dyno, we broke in street and racing motors the same. Same methodology.
2. Whether street or racing, we considered the motor broken in when the rings were seated properly -- as witnessed when you stick an endoscope down the cylinder and take a look.

Of course other drive train components need to be broken in as well. That's why I chose my words very carefully by only discussing the break in of the motor.

/PG

OK, thanks for the clarification. I think I mixed your post up with another post on this thread by a different person.

In that case, I'd say that it is mainly about the controlled setting and monitoring/measurement issue.

Also, did you actually follow up with the street engines to see how they were holding up with 100000+ miles? And if so, how large was that sample?

[Gearhead999s]

We all agree that street and racing motors are different. I guess I was making two other points, and probably worded it poorly.
1. On the dyno, we broke in street and racing motors the same. Same methodology.
2. Whether street or racing, we considered the motor broken in when the rings were seated properly -- as witnessed when you stick an endoscope down the cylinder and take a look.

Of course other drive train components need to be broken in as well. That's why I chose my words very carefully by only discussing the break in of the motor.

/PGI have broken in lots of motors on the dyno with very good results.I have found that most engines will seat the rings in the 1st half hour of running with some variation in load and I have never had an issue with oil usage or blowbye using a rapid breakin and that included 3 previous M-cars.My last Ducati came with very specific break in instructions just like my M3 did and because the dyno was broken,it had to be broken in on the road.
The dealer who is a racer,said to ignore the manual and just seat the rings as I always done and no prolonged full throttle(top speed runs) running for a while.The result has been no oil consumption and very little blowbye and thats with 20000 kms of street riding and over 60 track days.My friends who followed the long breakin as per the manual have had blowbye problems including piston & cylinder replacements.
I followed my method on the M3 and so far everything is working good so far!I am very anal about making sure that everything is totaly warmed up(oil temp) before going over 3000 rpm whether it is being "run in" or normal use.That is allways followed on all my vehicles and so far so good.

[PencilGeek]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I think I mixed your post up with another post on this thread by a different person.

In that case, I'd say that it is mainly about the controlled setting and monitoring/measurement issue.

Also, did you actually follow up with the street engines to see how they were holding up with 100000+ miles? And if so, how large was that sample?


Our street car sample size was very small since we were primarily a racing shop. Maybe 20 street motors during the 2.5 years I worked there (Drake Engineering -- owner/developer of the "Offy" racing motor). Hard to say what happened after I left, but I never heard of "normal" street motors having any problems. The only (single) problem I remember was a guy who had us build him a turbo motor with forged pistons...then he complained that it was consuming too much oil (a common byproduct of having forged pistons).

/PG

[edlms]

So these were baseline figures -- not including the exhaust?

/PG

yup. this was stock figures before mods.
the change up was at 8250RPM.

really nice to understanding more from reading all these posts.

cheers

[swamp2]

I have broken in lots of motors on the dyno with very good results.I have found that most engines will seat the rings in the 1st half hour of running with some variation in load and I have never had an issue with oil usage or blowbye using a rapid breakin and that included 3 previous M-cars.
...


Good information but much of the break in for a regular production vehicle is in the drivetrain, probably even more is required here than for the engine. Clutch, transmission, driveline bearing, differential, etc. These days engines have seen a break in like procedure at the factory but the drivetrain has had very little to nothing done to it.

[PencilGeek]

Good information but much of the break in for a regular production vehicle is in the drivetrain, probably even more is required here than for the engine. Clutch, transmission, driveline bearing, differential, etc. These days engines have seen a break in like procedure at the factory but the drivetrain has had very little to nothing done to it.

I think we're basically all in agreement here. The motorheads all acknowledge that it takes about 60 minutes to break in a motor, but that doesn't do squat for the rest of the car.

The irony being, that the dealers give you this lecture about breaking in the car, and the entire lecture is motor-centric -- even though the motor is most likely already broken-in when you first drive it off of the lot.

/PG

[edlms]

update on first post...

cheers

[Epacy]

Nice increase. Good to see the intake is good for more than just sound and looks.

[Ilia@IND]

A bit of trivia- BMW actually runs all of their brand new engines on a dyno to redline immediately after assembly. When I was at BMW a few years ago, they were running their brand new motors just like that.

[PunjabiM3]

Is there a specific procedure to dyno the e92 or can I just go to a shop and have it dynoed all the way to redline? I remember on the e46 the car would cut off at 6500rpm unless you had a special machine (GT1?) to dyno it to redline.