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      12-18-2012, 08:38 PM   #23
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+1...At least when Merc lost site of their heritage back in the late 90s they tried to resurrect some of that Merc quality in their current line-up. I doubt it if BMW will ever return to their roots of being the ultimate driving machines.

BTW
Correct......I have heard from several people from Indy Techs, to older Merc techs and Merc owners from the 70's to now. The shocking part is they all said that Merc stopped making proper cars in 1994. That's when they went "fully automated" not sure what exactly that means........but regardless. I've always wanted an C class AMG or E AMG, but the fact that they come with "slushboxes'/chicktronics....etc. Huge turn off
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      12-18-2012, 10:11 PM   #24
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The thing about being on top is.....you have nowhere to go but down.
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      12-18-2012, 10:13 PM   #25
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Interesting. But what does this really mean to us? I mean sure, those numbers are attractive on financial statements but that's about it. It definitely doesn't mean that BMW is necessarily building better cars.

The way I see it is Mercedes' only focus is to be build the best luxury cars, period - and they probably do. I don't think you'll find many who will argue or disagree. They're lack of expansion, while may hurt them with investors, is probably doing a better job in keeping with their business.

As for BMW, you can't argue that they're not market/industry leaders. With that valuation, it's definitely great, but at what cost? We've all read the articles here and you would be blind to see what BMW is doing to move forward but with all this expansion, has it hurt or affected BMW and what their original core business - which is to build sport-orientated cars (Not going to answer that, don't want to start that argument again)?

Alienate the core, assimilate the masses....if in fact Mercedes was the bogey looks like BMW has hit it..

VAG is not sleeping however - we'll see how this all evolves
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      12-18-2012, 10:45 PM   #26
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I never drove a Merc that I really liked... Can't explain it, but the cars don't appeal to me in any way.
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      12-18-2012, 10:53 PM   #27
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Alienate the core, assimilate the masses....if in fact Mercedes was the bogey looks like BMW has hit it..

VAG is not sleeping however - we'll see how this all evolves
Definitely. Audi has improved so much in so little time. I was in that camp saying Audi would never be on par with BMW as a drivers cars. I'm eating crow now.
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      12-18-2012, 11:07 PM   #28
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Definitely. Audi has improved so much in so little time. I was in that camp saying Audi would never be on par with BMW as a drivers cars. I'm eating crow now.
They have improved, but still not on par.
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      12-19-2012, 12:48 AM   #29
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The thing about being on top is.....you have nowhere to go but down.
Except that in a business, you can become a industry standard and constantly improve upon it.
There is no such thing as limit in technology.
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      12-19-2012, 01:15 AM   #30
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not sure what's the point for regular consumers to care about this, anybody here owns a load of bmw or mb stock? If so, this is indeed important to you.
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      12-19-2012, 04:21 AM   #31
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AMG's are the only noteworthy cars Mercedes makes, and several of them are absurdly expensive. I wouldn't mind a C63 AMG coupe, it can hold its ground against an M3. 335i takes a shit on a C350 though
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      12-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #32
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Wow...

You're clearly in the camp where more profits the better because you can't see that people will look at this valuation over Mercedes like BMW is making perfect cars.

We all know the how, what we're discussing is what did it do to the brand overall. If you think everything is rosy over in Munich and right now BMW is/can't do no wrong because how much they're valued at, then nothing is going to change your mind. You can talk about all this innovation they've done to become valued at this and that, great but guess what, that came at price on how their cars perform, period.

Again you keep going on about Mercedes like they're the bastard brand. Who cares if they're the German Lexus? Did they try to pretend that they were something else? Mercedes has always stuck to their business model - manufacture the best luxury cars. It's funny that you hope that BMW doesn't become Mercedes but you completely miss the direction BMW is going in. Not only have their cars become soft (an attempt to cater to those looking at Mercedes) but they're in fact becoming the German Toyota with all these models trying to cater to every market/demographic.
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      12-19-2012, 09:45 AM   #33
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I think y'all are right in two things but I would like to add that both are double sided arguments.

On one hand MB does not build cars like they did in the past, but then again neither is anyone in automotive industry.

Also while I agree MB is for upper age groups, I will not want to drive a "sporty" BMW if I was higher than 40-50 so it goes both ways. That is, if BMW is still a sporty brand by the time that happens!

Only other thing I'd like to add is that while BMW might be innovative, don't forget who the pioneer and patent holder is...

MB is still highly respectable brand, even if BMW has changed to appeal to a much wider audience now.

And just for arguments sake I would take an AMG over an M any day of the year!!!
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      12-19-2012, 10:42 AM   #34
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AMG's are the only noteworthy cars Mercedes makes, and several of them are absurdly expensive. I wouldn't mind a C63 AMG coupe, it can hold its ground against an M3. 335i takes a shit on a C350 though
I own a C350 Coupe...It is "fast," but feels slow for a 300 HP car.

Also, it's my first RWD car. The car's slip warning comes on when I'm trying to go on a left turn at a stop.

When I was done with my Audi S5 Manual, I was considering the 335i Coupe (2012) but I couldn't stand BMW interior. With the F30/F32 models out now, thats a diff story of course.

I thought I would give Mercedes a shot because I felt like it was the better choice at the time and it was a new model vs owning the end of the 3 series couple cycle. I "like" my car, but I don't love it. The interior of a car is really important to me. I drive often and I appreciate a refined interior on my trips to vegas every 2 months.

However, I'm slowly getting more annoyed of my automatic transmission. I really wish they made a manual for the C350. Like the article says, the car is catered more towards an older crowd.

Lease is up in 12 months. Looking to either get a 435i or S5 Manual.
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      12-19-2012, 12:07 PM   #35
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Argument? Who are you arguing with? How did BMW's business come to be valued at twice MB's? What schedule should they have used up to now? Markets constantly change. And because 9 guys on a message board don't like that they changed a Coupe designation from 3 to 4 is not a valid reason for them to stop what they've been doing and refining to become so valuable. They'll make some, they'll miss some. But I just hope they won't become Mercedes, which is the German Lexus, which is the Japanese Caddy.
I'm not complaining about the 3er coupe being a 4er coupe etc...it's all about core values and its mission statement. Every company base their direction in R&D on their mission statement and BMW clearly is not abiding by the "ultimate driving machine" moniker. That's all I'm complaining about. BMW is becoming the new German "premium" GM...too big to fail...too complacent to do wrong. We all see where GM ended up...competition is stiff so now we have Cadillacs building more fun cars than BMW.

It's good that they're profitable and appealing to the masses but if a company gets too complacent then those profits will take a dive sooner or later. BMW is resting on its laurels and the majority of people in the US and China, it's biggest two markets, buy them just because it's a BMW but if word gets out that another manufacturer builds more exciting cars then let's see how the market looks then.
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      12-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #36
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The German Toyota is called VW, and it even has a Lexus in the form of Audi.

Now should we rejoice about such news. Probably not, it means the market expect that BMW is going to be able to juice its customers more than Daimler, and therefore be more profitable. I'd rather have MB in better shape, so that good competition keeps price at bay and we can all enjoy better cars for less money.
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      12-19-2012, 03:52 PM   #37
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I'm not complaining about the 3er coupe being a 4er coupe etc...it's all about core values and its mission statement. Every company base their direction in R&D on their mission statement and BMW clearly is not abiding by the "ultimate driving machine" moniker. That's all I'm complaining about. BMW is becoming the new German "premium" GM...too big to fail...too complacent to do wrong. We all see where GM ended up...competition is stiff so now we have Cadillacs building more fun cars than BMW.

It's good that they're profitable and appealing to the masses but if a company gets too complacent then those profits will take a dive sooner or later. BMW is resting on its laurels and the majority of people in the US and China, it's biggest two markets, buy them just because it's a BMW but if word gets out that another manufacturer builds more exciting cars then let's see how the market looks then.
That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
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      12-19-2012, 06:07 PM   #38
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When I was recently in Los Angeles for the i3 Coupe I took the opportunity to take a drive in the ATS and whilst it was interesting it still was not a 3er , it actually felt like a more sportier version of our (German market GM) Opel Insignia , I have not followed whether the two are based on each other story so I cannot tell you if they are twins or not?

It was interesting but it did not stand out the way a BMW does.

BMW is not a German GM, or Toyota that is VW , BMW is run very much differently from either.

This generation of BMW models is far more profitable than before due the commonality of matrix sharing between each model which allows more models to be spun-off cost effectively whilst making a significant return. This was implemented well before the economic crisis hit as was EfficientDynamics and many other fuel efficient features, well before competitors had to take notice.

BMW is a company that focuses on the priorities of the industry and each challenge must be met. Constant change is active at BMW and we like to embrace it. By the time the customer is made aware of that challenge you will find BMW are at the advent of implementing a solution.

VW are not pleased about BMW's collaboration with Toyota as some have mentioned that with VW fighting to take the no1 spot from Toyota. BMW has hindered that in order to prolong the inevitable from happening anytime soon.
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      12-19-2012, 07:45 PM   #39
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      12-19-2012, 08:30 PM   #40
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That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
Buddy you're definitely drinking the kool-aid...for starters credit is given when due and yes I HAVE DRIVEN an F30 in every form from a base 328i to a Sport Line 335i and yes I have DRIVEN both the turbo 4 banger ATS and the V6 ATS. I never said it was a better car. I simply said it was more fun to drive and it truly is. That's my biggest point... I didn't buy a BMW because of the cool tech and blah blah blah. I bought BMWs because of how FUN they were.

BTW nothing is sold at a discount from BMW. What planet are you on...the Japanese do bang for the buck performance per dollar much better than the Germans.
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      12-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #41
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When I was recently in Los Angeles for the i3 Coupe I took the opportunity to take a drive in the ATS and whilst it was interesting it still was not a 3er , it actually felt like a more sportier version of our (German market GM) Opel Insignia , I have not followed whether the two are based on each other story so I cannot tell you if they are twins or not?

It was interesting but it did not stand out the way a BMW does.

BMW is not a German GM, or Toyota that is VW , BMW is run very much differently from either.

This generation of BMW models is far more profitable than before due the commonality of matrix sharing between each model which allows more models to be spun-off cost effectively whilst making a significant return. This was implemented well before the economic crisis hit as was EfficientDynamics and many other fuel efficient features, well before competitors had to take notice.

BMW is a company that focuses on the priorities of the industry and each challenge must be met. Constant change is active at BMW and we like to embrace it. By the time the customer is made aware of that challenge you will find BMW are at the advent of implementing a solution.

VW are not pleased about BMW's collaboration with Toyota as some have mentioned that with VW fighting to take the no1 spot from Toyota. BMW has hindered that in order to prolong the inevitable from happening anytime soon.
The ATS is on an all new RWD platform (Alpha) that was developed to benchmark the E46 chassis. The Insignia is based on the FWD Epsilon II platform. No relation
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      12-20-2012, 08:10 AM   #42
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The ATS is on an all new RWD platform (Alpha) that was developed to benchmark the E46 chassis. The Insignia is based on the FWD Epsilon II platform. No relation
Then...may I suggest...you buy an ATS. But thank you for driving BMW.
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      12-20-2012, 07:44 PM   #43
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Actually in the history of capitalism all "#1" businesses eventually relinquish their lead. Even more accelerated in technology businesses.


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Except that in a business, you can become a industry standard and constantly improve upon it.
There is no such thing as limit in technology.
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      12-20-2012, 07:56 PM   #44
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More niches in body styles, actually fewer niches in engine (the core of performance), which is troubling.

People are mistaking profitability (margin) vs actual profit dollars. Porsche is actually a more profitable company (margins) vs. BMW, but a much smaller size and they are providing niches in both body styles and engines (e.g. having one of the last normally aspirated ones in performance cars) while winning every category they're in comparison tests. From the enthusiast perspective, it's not achieving profitability as the sole determinant of winning, but how you achieve that profitability.

And as far as advertising, so all the comparos that BMW used to win were actually because they spent more ad dollars, and now beginning in 2012, they aren't spending, so they're not winning anymore?

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That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
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