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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > Read this if you have had a fractured alloy -M light alloy wheels double spoke 225m19



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      10-20-2008, 04:51 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer View Post
My argument to that would be that as the car is fitted with a tyre pressure sensor/warning system, the system should warn you when the pressure is low enough to cause serious and life threatening damage to the wheels.
Can't argue with that. But as it isn't good enough (apart from the individual wheel transducers per the US models) I'll still check 'em weekly.
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      10-20-2008, 03:14 PM   #46
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Angry update

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjs View Post
Evening all, new member here

Scothall claim I've 2 Cracked alloys this morning, glad I've been guided to this thread from dare I say it a merc forum. 330d 06 plate, 63k miles, ex sytner demo, motorway miles...

Any words of wisdom/advice before I tackle BMW at customer Services on Monday. Dealer claiming I've had too little pressure in and the roads around Leeds are full of potholes.

thanks

TODAY THEN

rang bmw cust services, clearly well versed in this sort of thing as they trot out 'external influences' and contrary to what the dealer told me, Customer Services say it is down to the dealer, and even suggested I try a different dealer.

Scothall then suggest a further test, a 'run out test' which they'll do on the wheels tomorrow. Not exactly independent. The service manager I've had previous issue with when they had to refurb two front wheels for me when ironically damging them changing tyres previously so knows I wont go away quietly.

They have kept pressue up over the last two days, and thinking about the tyre pressure issue, they have now serviced it 3 times and at no point suggested the tyres were under pressure.


If they didnt make such good cars I'd get a lexus, but they do, so I havnt. (for the record, 2 x 330d e46 sport tourings, 730d sport, old shapes 328i sport, 323i cab, e39 528sport, e46 m3)
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      10-21-2008, 03:46 PM   #47
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scothall leeds must be flourishing with alloy wheel sales and getting slick and sick of giving their customers crappy excuses. next time you speak to their service manager mention youve seen the conclusions of the independant report that prooves their wheels are cracking due to a manufacturer problem
(07 335i cab sport)


......still waiting the final report which i will make available
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      10-21-2008, 05:08 PM   #48
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PJS -

Quote:
Scothall then suggest a further test, a 'run out test' which they'll do on the wheels tomorrow. Not exactly independent.
I had the same "test" done by my dealer and BMW GB's Regional Tech. Manager, the outcome of which was the following:

'Carried out inspection of both wheels. Found kerbing damage to outside
> edges of rims. Removed both tyres, ran wheel on wheel balance equipment to
> measure the
> radial run-out. Measured the run-out on both rims found one rim 1.20mm,
> other rim 0.91mm. The max permissible run out is 0.3mm. The excessive
> distortion to the rims can only be caused by impact from outside source
> resulting in the rims cracking. Due to the results of the inspection the
> wheels cannot be claimed under the manufacturers warranty.'

For the record the kerbing damage on my wheels was parking kerb damage, not the wheel bending high speed damage that they had insinuated in several messages to me.

I would recommend, as another forum user did to me but I was out of the country, to go to the dealer and "witness" their "test" and ask them to do the same test on wheels without any cracks.
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      10-21-2008, 05:19 PM   #49
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Also like to see a brand new wheel which hasn't been mounted on a car tested.

Surely a wheel which has cracked will show some deformation when tested. It wouldn't of cracked if it hadn't deformed!!!!
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      10-22-2008, 12:40 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mda335i View Post
PJS -



I had the same "test" done by my dealer and BMW GB's Regional Tech. Manager, the outcome of which was the following:

'Carried out inspection of both wheels. Found kerbing damage to outside
> edges of rims. Removed both tyres, ran wheel on wheel balance equipment to
> measure the
> radial run-out. Measured the run-out on both rims found one rim 1.20mm,
> other rim 0.91mm. The max permissible run out is 0.3mm. The excessive
> distortion to the rims can only be caused by impact from outside source
> resulting in the rims cracking. Due to the results of the inspection the
> wheels cannot be claimed under the manufacturers warranty.'

For the record the kerbing damage on my wheels was parking kerb damage, not the wheel bending high speed damage that they had insinuated in several messages to me.

I would recommend, as another forum user did to me but I was out of the country, to go to the dealer and "witness" their "test" and ask them to do the same test on wheels without any cracks.

I agree with the testing another wheel suggestion.

Also, they tested a cracked wheel and concluded that the run-out was due to the kerb damage, and the run out caused the cracks? I would suggest that the run out could be due to the cracks!

If they say the kerbing caused the cracks and your wheels are cracked on the inside (underneath the car) and the kerbing is on the outside - how do they conclude the kerb damage caused the cracks?

My conclusion is, again, they are not qualified to comment. Ask for the Regional Manager's engineering qualifications, particularly in metalurgy.
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      10-22-2008, 03:16 PM   #51
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Update

last 48hours then

Tuesday - Run out test at Scothall, bmw email as follows

Thank you for allowing us to assess your vehicle in further detail in order to determine the degree of run out on both rear wheels.

We carried out the test and have determined that the OSR wheel had a radial run out in excess of 4mm and the NSR wheel in excess of 3mm. The maximum permissible amount of radial run out on the rim is 0.3mm and I have attached technical data sheet for your reference.

It is not possible to determine the cause of this excessive run out but it is clear this is not a manufacturing defect.

With both wheels now displaying cracks I strongly recommend you replace both rear wheels as soon as possible.




Then after my comemnts I got
It is not possible for us to determine the cause of the cracks however under inflated tyres can make wheels more venerable to damage.

I do examine many wheels and the warranty guidelines are very clear as to how a manufacturing defect can be identified. My opinion is that the damage is caused by an external influence and not a defect.

It may be a benefit to gain the opinion of another BMW dealer on the warranty status of the wheels.



I've also spoke to the supplying dealer (Sytner), Customer Services, Scothalls Aftersales Manager amongst others. All robust in saying not a manufacturing defect.

The are clearly aware of the Mira report mentioned previously but say they cant discuss it as it is an ongoing issue.

As we stand tonight, tomorrow I'll be arranging to pay for 2 wheels otherwise I risk my family having a serious accident and I need it for work. They are going to investigate if they are happy for the tyres to go back on. Scothalls sy they will do them for cost.

I'll then start a small claims action.

Thanks to all posters for advice

Oh, and I have enqurired elsewhere as to the cost of the lovely performance 19" wheels featured on another thread, £2700 inc bespoke Bridgstones - cant afford them buggers though


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      10-25-2008, 11:43 AM   #52
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update

So, £500 lighter for two new alloys, fortunately the tryes were fine, no surprise as no damage. Each wheel has a small crack on the edge of the inside rim. Pics attached

I'll be writing to Honest John to try and get featured in the telegraph as I start mt campaign to get reimbursed. Oh, and to prove I'm no hooligan driver - with 63k miles on, still 11k miles before I need front pads according to I drive. Never had disks either.

the last word for now though from bmw cust services below,

Thank you for your email dated October 23, 2008 and would like to apologise that you have had to contact us under such circumstances.

I have logged your photographs and email under case number xxxxxx. In light of the issues raised in your email I have spoken to Mr Phil Clark, Service Manager at Scotthall Leeds. Mr Clark has confirmed that no manufacturing defect was identified by the investigative work carried out at the dealership. Having discussed this matter with Mr Clark and based on their diagnosis, I feel that no further action can be taken by BMW UK.

As you are aware the results from Scotthall Leeds tests determined that the off side rear wheel had a radial run out in excess of 4mm and the near side rear wheel had a radial run out in excess of 3mm. The warranty tolerance for a wheel run-out is 0.30mm and anything above this is considered to be due to impact damage. Impact damage can be associated with kerbing, pot holes or damaged roads. However this is not always the case for example, if the vehicle hits a speed bump at an excessive pace.

I appreciate that this is not the response that you had hoped for but I trust I have clarified our reasons for this.

Yours sincerely

BMW Group UK
Siobhán de Búrca
Customer Service Executive
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: 0870 5050160
Fax: 0870 5050205



Attached Images
  
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      10-25-2008, 12:43 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjs View Post
It is not possible to determine the cause of this excessive run out but it is clear this is not a manufacturing defect.

It is not possible for us to determine the cause of the cracks
So, they say that they can't determine the cause of the cracks or the runout, but they are clear that it's not a manufacturing defect? Oh, come on - they can't say Dunno what caused it, but I know it's not "our" fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjs View Post
It may be a benefit to gain the opinion of another BMW dealer on the warranty status of the wheels.
?Try another dealer? Now I know how warranties work, but is this not just another admission that they aren't qualified enough? Certainly, I would take it that way...
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      10-31-2008, 03:47 AM   #54
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seems pretty conclusive to me....prov report

had enough of this dodging the bullet from BMW DEALERS see below the provisonal report ....which is now being finalised now that BMW have had strong words with MIRA....SO MUCH FOR AN INDEPENDANT ASSESEMENT,that the numpty service manager at Scothall told me to get as i didnt belive their bullshit findings .what upsets me is that i paid for three wheels ,and MIRA have said there is bugger all wrong with the third wheel . they must have spotted me a mile off .

gloves are off .....round 1






SUMMARY ************************requested MIRA to investigate the failures of several BMW alloy wheels from the same vehicle (a 2007 BMW 335i CAB SPORT PETROL). The failures were noticed after the tyres exhibited slow punctures on three of the four wheels. Close examination identified that the rims had cracked through the section and under the tyre mounting bead leading to a leak path for the pressurised air. The wheels and tyres (Bridgestone runflats) were factory fitted and had approximately 12,500 miles usage. The dealer, ************, part of BMW (UK) stated the failures were due to road damage and were therefore a non-warranty item. *********** was not satisfied with this explanation and therefore contacted MIRA to independently identify potential root cause(s). The analyses undertaken identified multiple cracking on each wheel with no evidence of kerb-strilke or similar on the wheel. A Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM) identified one of the wheels to be only 0.17mm out of round on a diameter of 522mm. Microscopic analysis of the cracks identified the presence of voids and other stress raisers from the manufacturing process. Given the multiple cracking and manufacturing defects and the absence of potential crack initators (eg kerb-strike damage), the author can only conclude that the wheels have failed due to poor manufacturing. All the wheels examined were made within ten days and hence the supposition that this may be a batch problem in the manufacture of the wheels.
CONTENTS Page

1 Introduction .................................................. .................................................. .............. 1
2 Cursory Examination .................................................. ................................................. 1
3 Microscopy. .................................................. .................................................. .............. 6
4 Discussion & Conclusions .................................................. ........................................ 7
5 Further Work .................................................. .................................................. ............ 8
Appendix 1 .................................................. .................................................. ...................... 1
1 Introduction
************************************* requested MIRA to investigate the failures of several BMW alloy wheels from the same vehicle (a 2007 BMW 335i CAB SPORT PETROL). The failures were noticed after the tyres exhibited slow punctures on three of the four wheels. Close examination identified that the rims had cracked through the section and under the tyre mounting bead leading to a leak path for the pressurised air. The wheels and tyres (Bridgestone runflats) were factory fitted and had approximately 12,500 miles usage. The dealer, *********, part of BMW (UK) stated the failures were due to road damage and were therefore a non-warranty item. *************** was not satisfied with this explanation and therefore contacted MIRA to independently identify potential root cause(s).
2 Cursory Examination
Visual Observation of the wheels identified multiple cracking around the inside of the wheel rim (unobservable from the outside of the vehicle) shown in Figures 1 & 2, with no visible damage to the inside rim. The wheels were all made by the same manufacturer in a short space of time between the 21st and 29th March 2007. Although the 29/03/07 wheel showed some signs of exterior rim damage the 21/03/07 was near perfect except for some lacquer chipping on the exterior (Figure 3). With respect to the failure of the 29/03/07 wheel; although it did have some exterior damage that may have been associated with an incidence of kerb-strike, it would be expected (from experience) that the interior crack would have been in evidence on the opposite interior face. This was not the case and the 29th wheel had four such cracks and “ghosting” (See figure 4) of a defect present in a similar position (Figures 5-8). Cracks labelled as #3 and #4 had not propagated enough to cause deflation of the tyre at time of receipt, however #1 and #2 were. Inner rim cracking of aluminium alloys is a common occurrence where a kerb-strike initiates damage.The crack initiates at the shoulder of the indentation and then propagates through the inner rim bead due to aluminium’s poor fatigue properties. However, no such evidence of “kerb-strike” was apparent.




Figure 1: Cracking of 21/03/07 alloy wheel on interior rim. Note the crack opening displacement of approximately 1mm. Figure 2: Cracking of 29/03/07 wheel on interior rim.






Figure 2: Cracking of 29/03/07 wheel on interior rim


Figure 3: 21/03/07 wheel showing no external evidence of damage.






























Figure 4: 29th Wheel showing “ghosting” across the interior rim (Circled).









Figure 5: Crack #1 in 29th Wheel. Figure 6: Crack #2 in 29th Wheel.




Figure 6: Crack #2 in 29th Wheel



Figure 7: Crack #3 in 29th Wheel.






Figure 8: Crack #4 in 29th Wheel.






3 Microscopy.
Electron microscopy identified voids in the fracture surface. These voids would act as stress raisers and support both initiation and initial crack propagation. Figure 9: Electron micrograph of fracture surface showing voiding. X 30 Mag.






Figure 10: 0.4mm defect in fracture surface.






4 Discussion & Conclusions
From the work undertaken, it is apparent that the cause of failure cannot be attributed to kerb-strikes or other damage to the wheel. It must therefore be concluded that the failure is due to the manufacturing process or the material quality. The presence of multiple cracks on both wheels without any commensurate damage on either face of the rim point to the fact that wheel has not been “abused” by the driver. The fact that there are four almost equidistant cracks and additional ghost marks on the 29th March Wheel suggest manufacturing defects. It must be noted that aluminium castings and forgings invariably contain defects of enfolded oxides, voids and inclusions; however, if these defects are large enough or of sufficient quantity they will produce cracks under normal driving conditions. It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to minimise these defects in order that the product lasts longer than the Manufacturer’s or Seller’s Warranty period (Six years under UK Sales of Goods Act unless exempt).
5 Further Work
Given the failures observed, there is little or no further work required in terms of the determination of the cause with respect to ******************. However, determination of the quality of the aluminium used, the magnitude of residual stresses from the manufacturing process and the quality of the process could all be considered by the manufacturer to identify root cause. Techniques such as OES (Optical Emission Spectroscopy) would identify any differences in the composition from specification and CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) such as MagmaSoft would assist in obtaining the optimum manufacturing conditions.
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      10-31-2008, 03:51 AM   #55
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Seems conclusive to me too. So what have BMW and / or the dealer said as a result of this? Or is that the bit you're waiting for?
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      10-31-2008, 04:02 AM   #56
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as to all the other customers . its the way we drive over potholes and dont fill our tyres with any air!
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      10-31-2008, 04:12 AM   #57
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But your report states otherwise. I assume, armed with this, you are preparing legal action?
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      10-31-2008, 04:52 AM   #58
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It would be good to see someone set a precedence with this, totally unacceptable IMO
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      10-31-2008, 08:03 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creepy coupe View Post
It would be good to see someone set a precedence with this, totally unacceptable IMO
Must be so frustrating and I agree with Creepy Coupe - it's just totally unacceptable.

I've checked my rims (Nov 07 build for the car - not sure about the wheels) and thankfully they don't appear to be suffering at the moment (but I've now moved to non RFT's to help prevent any probs, so who knows what will happen if mine crack as well).

It seems incredible to me that BMW would continue to blame other factors when the evidence for manufacturing defects is so great. Baffling as well, as the wheel manufacturer would be the one to cover the cost of replacement.

Could the other people who have suffered fractures confirm the build date of their wheels - as this might help to tie things down to a batch of production.

Keep at 'em Crackerjack
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      10-31-2008, 12:30 PM   #60
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on a technical note (something bmw knows nothing about) how can i upload the piccies as my crack is bigger than yours( so said the builder to his mate)
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      10-31-2008, 12:38 PM   #61
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I wonder what technical information/evidence BMW provided in order for Mira to do a 180?
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      10-31-2008, 12:56 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackerjack View Post
on a technical note (something bmw knows nothing about) how can i upload the piccies as my crack is bigger than yours( so said the builder to his mate)
Hi Crackerjack,

I assume the pics are already on your computer...if so, then when you're writing your reply:
1) Click on the red '+' symbol - that'll open a 'Manage Attachments' window.
2) Click 'Browse' - to find the pics on your computer.
3) Click 'Upload' - which does what it says on the tin
4) Close the 'Manage Attachments' window.
5) Click the red '+' symbol again to add your attachment to the body text of the message.

Hope I've not missed anything or taught you how to suck eggs (you use a straw)

HTH
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      10-31-2008, 01:35 PM   #63
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Crackerjack - good work. How on earth are BMW refusing the claim in the face of this? I would seem clear you have them banged to rights - to the extent that they should fund the MIRA report you paid for as well as (4) new wheels.

I don't understand how BMW have influenced MIRA - the report looks pretty independant to me and totally vindicates your position doesn't it?
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      10-31-2008, 02:47 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///ajd View Post
I don't understand how BMW have influenced MIRA - the report looks pretty independant to me and totally vindicates your position doesn't it?
I think that's the provisional report crakerjack has posted. We await the BMW influenced 'final' report.
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      10-31-2008, 03:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by robbie99 View Post
I think that's the provisional report crakerjack has posted. We await the BMW influenced 'final' report.
I see - all clear now I read it more carefully. I had assumed this was the long awaited final version, as its been due for sometime hasn't it?

Unless they change the laws of physics and metallurgy it'll be interesting to see how they can change the verdict to the extent that absolves BMW of liability under the SOGA. How do you know BMW are going to change it - or is it just a case of the MIRA guy consulting BMW? In the circumstances its not unfair to seek BMWs side of the (engineering) story to gain a complete picture - if MIRA initiated it, you shouldn't worry too much that the report will change markedly.
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      11-05-2008, 04:30 PM   #66
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Wink update

Not the most exciting read, but the legal beagle reckons that every chance a judge will on 'balance of probability' agree with me that having 2 cracked wheels is inded a manufacturing fault, hence the following letter gone to bmw today. Should I have the courtesy of a reply, I'll let you know

Final Notice before Legal Action re case number xxxxxx

I enclose a copy of the email I wrote to you on 23rd October 2008 and your response of the 24th October 2008

I have given you a reasonable opportunity to resolve my complaint however you have failed to do so and as a result I have sought and received proper legal advice.

My legal advisors have the view that given both rear wheels have cracked, it is highly plausible that it is a manufacturing fault.

I have now been left with no alternative but to seek legal redress through the courts. Unless this matter is satisfactory resolved within the next 14 days I will instigate legal proceedings without further notice. The cost of this action will be added to my claim.

For the avoidance of doubt, a satisfactory resolution will only be reached by refunding the £502.47 I had to pay to for new rear wheels to ensure the continued safe use of my car
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