[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

No, it's 100,000 for a complete life cycle (6 years). IIRC that target means less than 10% more than the E46 M3.


Best regards, south

I thought we discussed this.... I think you are right.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

I'm not 100% sure but I believe KER is developed in assocation with Torotrak, a British gearbox manufacturer who has developed a new IVT gearbox that I know BMW are interested in.

KER is a Torotrak development to be introduced in F1 either 2009 or 2010. I doubt we will see such a system in the mainstream before 2015, but you never know, things to aid economy are at the forefront of all manufacturers minds.

BMW is said to use an electrical KERS, not the mechanical one developed by Flybrid/Torotrack. Also their 'Active Hybrid' concepts use electrical systems.


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

BMW is said to use an electrical KERS, not the mechanical one developed by Flybrid/Torotrack. Also their 'Active Hybrid' concepts use electrical systems.


Best regards, south

What the heck is an electrical KER?? The whole reason for KER is to avoid the inefficient mechanical energy to electrical back to mechanical energy process.

[vAnt826]

M losing focus, I don't care if it means less profit for the company.

M is supposed to give BMW owners something to brag about. Something for the 328i owners to brag about to their Audi/MB counter parts. The M was never intended to profit, it was intended to show the power that BMW can unleash. That vision has been lost and now the company is trying to push profit margins higher on these M cars.

This is the same reason why the Bugatti and the GT-R even exist.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

What the heck is an electrical KER?? The whole reason for KER is to avoid the inefficient mechanical energy to electrical back to mechanical energy process.

Well, KERS is only a fancy name for hybrid in F1. There's not a specific concept behind. Most teams develop their own system, some a electric version, others a mechanical. Both systems likely have their pros and cons.


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

Well, KERS is only a fancy name for hybrid in F1. There's not a specific concept behind. Most teams develop their own system, some a electric version, others a mechanical. Both systems likely have their pros and cons.


Best regards, south

I don't think anyone is down the path of mechanical energy -> Electric -> Mechanical. Way too inefficient given the need for heavy batteries.

I think all F1 teams are working a pure mechanical system. I hope BMW ///M is also down this path.

[epbrown]

Yes, the M-division is responsible for making "halo" cars, and no, they aren't expected to carry the company with their sales, but neither are they expected to weigh it down with losses. BMW isn't trying to go for Porsche-like profit margins, they're simply going to stop subsidizing the US market.

This is the same as the gas price situation: for years we got sweetheart deals compared to the rest of the world, and now we're going to cry when the playing field levels? Surely we're better than this?

Originally Posted by vAnt826

M is supposed to give BMW owners something to brag about.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I don't think anyone is down the path of mechanical energy -> Electric -> Mechanical. Way too inefficient given the need for heavy batteries.

I think all F1 teams are working a pure mechanical system. I hope BMW ///M is also down this path.

BMW Sauber already said last week that they're going to use an electric KERS. Honestly I think that most teams will do accordingly. This system as used by BMW Sauber adds about 40kg.

Don't know about BMW ///M, but like I said yesterday the Active hybrid concepts also base on an electric system.


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

BMW Sauber already said last week that they're going to use an electric KERS. Honestly I think that most teams will do accordingly. This system as used by BMW Sauber adds about 40kg.

Don't know about BMW ///M, but like I said yesterday the Active hybrid concepts also base on an electric system.


Best regards, south

Do you have a link?

Thanks.

[The_Blob]

Most of the E90's are driven by soccer moms where I live and they also drive X5's as their second car.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Do you have a link?

Thanks.

Sure, here's the press release: BMW_Sauber_KERS.pdf


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

Sure, here's the press release: Attachment 174412


Best regards, south

Interesting thanks.... With the press release we can now speculate a lot better about an electric KERS system.

Given that it will deliver 80 hp for 6.5 seconds and the system weighs 40 kg.....

BMW KERS will not likely be using batteries, I am willing to bet they are going to use large capacitors to store and discharge the power.

So if we can see 50 hp over 10 seconds in a new ///M Car, that would be very cool and could be used to mask turbo lag.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Interesting thanks.... With the press release we can now speculate a lot better about an electric KERS system.

Given that it will deliver 80 hp for 6.5 seconds and the system weighs 40 kg.....

BMW KERS will not likely be using batteries, I am willing to bet they are going to use large capacitors to store and discharge the power.

So if we can see 50 hp over 10 seconds in a new ///M Car, that would be very cool and could be used to mask turbo lag.

I guess the KERS as used for ///M models will be based on the 'Active Hybrid' concept. In case you don't mind reading another press release: http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressc...ehybrid_gb.pdf

This version of 'Active Hybrid' uses two electric motors and a battery, so it seems like it can be used both electric and (somewhat) mechanical!? Anyway this is a full hybrid layout, doubt that ///M will be going that route...


Best regards, south

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by southlight

I guess the KERS as used for ///M models will be based on the 'Active Hybrid' concept. In case you don't mind reading another press release: http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressc...ehybrid_gb.pdf

This version of 'Active Hybrid' uses two electric motors and a battery, so it seems like it can be used both electric and (somewhat) mechanical!? Anyway this is a full hybrid layout, doubt that ///M will be going that route...


Best regards, south

South as always, great info...

From what I gather the system in the ///M (to debut in the X6 supposedly) is based on the mechanical system unlike the active hybrid models with batteries which is solely electrical.

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/07/25...rids/#more-401

The recent incident with the crew member getting shocked is just one of the issues with an electrical system....

But on the other hand BMW has been discussing taking the electric system to F1 and subsequently to street cars....

The issues I have with these press releases is that BMW let alone ///M would never make a formal announcement about something they are developing as it would squash the marketing after the fact....

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

South as always, great info...

From what I gather the system in the ///M (to debut in the X6 supposedly) is based on the mechanical system unlike the active hybrid models with batteries which is solely electrical.

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/07/25...rids/#more-401

The recent incident with the crew member getting shocked is just one of the issues with an electrical system....

But on the other hand BMW has been discussing taking the electric system to F1 and subsequently to street cars....

The issues I have with these press releases is that BMW let alone ///M would never make a formal announcement about something they are developing as it would squash the marketing after the fact....

Thanks!

It's kinda unusual for BMW but they said something about developing KERS and thus gaining a lot of experience and know how for series production.

A German press release cites Klaus Dräger: "We see the new 2009 F1 regulation as a chance to use innovative hybrid technology and therefore gain important insight for the series production. BMW customers will benefit from that since the KERS unit as developed for the BMW Sauber F1.09 features a highly efficient type of brake energy regeneration. Its operating mode is similar to ActiveHybrid."

That sounds like an electric KERS for ///M models, but that's only my guess.


Best regards, south

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

I'm SO happy I got my e90 M3 two-weeks ago!!! For 4K below invoice. Nice...

ok im not calling you a liar...but which dealer was stupid enough to give you a m3 for 4k below invoice?

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

I guess the KERS as used for ///M models will be based on the 'Active Hybrid' concept. In case you don't mind reading another press release: http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressc...ehybrid_gb.pdf

This version of 'Active Hybrid' uses two electric motors and a battery, so it seems like it can be used both electric and (somewhat) mechanical!? Anyway this is a full hybrid layout, doubt that ///M will be going that route...


Best regards, south

I would guess against batteries..... with the numbers they are saying 80hp for 6.5 seconds, the charge and discharge rate would be very difficult if not impossible by today's battery technologies (remember it weighs 40 kg!).

The limit of today's hybrid technology is the charge and discharge rates.

To get this type of performance, they will need to use power capacitors.

Heat is going to be a mega issue.

[ianbiz]

Time to buy a merc or audi.

[T Bone]

The fun has started my American friends....the end of cheap leases..... I have not confirmed this personally but dang!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161523

On a 36 month lease, 6.48% interest with a 50% residual.....

[willie55912]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

ok im not calling you a liar...but which dealer was stupid enough to give you a m3 for 4k below invoice?

I believe the discount. I was in Cedar Rapids, Ia...and visited a dealer that giving hefty discounts on 2 coupes and 1 sedan he had on hand...they were discounted 3 grand....the sedan 4.....the sedan had a bad color combo...so the hefty discount.....

I have learned that geographic regions....play a big part in discounts.....

[willie55912]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

ok im not calling you a liar...but which dealer was stupid enough to give you a m3 for 4k below invoice?

probably 3-4 under mrsp.....that is what I meant....not invoice

[sparkyg]

Good info guys, thx for all the links