▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by chris719

Sorry, I think you missed the context of my post. The engine discussed in the post is the S54, which is not direct injected and has a redline of 7900. There was no switch for S54 for any reason other than engines blowing up. Owner's manuals were printed calling for 5w-30 for months.

Further, if we talk about S65, that engine is not direct injected either and the redline is 600 shy of 9000.

I stand corrected.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

I have been following all the bearing threads for the last year and I'm in the majority of members who feel like there is inconclusive evidence of claims that the oil is the only/main cause of bearing failures.

I will speak for the bearing wiki thread and tell you that I never said any such thing. I also missed the poll for "majority of members." Do you have a link?

"They" are not required to answer my left field skeptism. If they choose to, maybe we all learn something, or maybe they will return and attack me for "not knowing enough".
I wonder how that would pan out...

Well again speaking for my thread and my posts, I would answer your question if I knew the answer, or I would ask one of the other experts if I didn't (most of the time). But the reality is that I don't always know the answer. I've mentioned many times that I'm not an engine builder and I may not know the answer. But when I don't respond it's usually when I agree with the comments, or because I didn't see them. If you're looking for an answer and you think it's been missed, you can always PM. I always try to answer every PM and email; I even make phone calls to help people.

I wont be responding to any of your comments any more as they have no relevance to me or this thread.

Starting with ad-hominem attacks is not the best way to start a discussion or get somebody to cooperate with you. I live in your area, you can always ask to meet, send me a PM, email, or phone call. Again, I may not know the answers, but I'll try to help or point you in the right direction.

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

You are just another example of someone getting defensive when they are asked to prove their claim.

Dodging the question and now Im the bad guy for asking one?

Take a chill pill dude, I never implied any of the above that you mentioned.

I know people often sound defensive and we have ego contests. So when I see my comments taken out of context either by omission or commission, of course I'm going to correct them. Either I want to correct a misconception or I don't want a false comment to stand. This is exactly what I did with you above. I see nothing wrong with that and don't know why that's being derided as abhorrent behavior to defend one's honor or stand up for intellectual honesty.

Now back on topic. I've looked at that pressure data, and it doesn't look quite right to me. You'll notice I rarely trust another person's work because I don't know if they use as many safeguards as I do. I know when I data log something, I don't just put up a few numbers on the screen and expect everybody to trust it as the gospel (like it sounds like you've done here). I usually do what my friends call "the data storm" -- dumping so much data that you simply can't refute it. There's a car in my area who just installed a data logging pressure sensor. I'm hoping that we'll have time to dump the data or figure out how to log it during a track session. I'll trust my data.

[code7rpd]

Regular Guy and Kawasaki00 - let me know what you find on your pressure numbers so I can compare. I ran my pressure sender on a Macht Schnell oil pressure fitting to a braided line that is about 2 feet long which ends at the pressure sensor. The pressure looks to be in spec, but I'm relying on the gauge so I'm sure data logging would be far more accurate. Are any of you seeing the pressure dip slightly when blipping the throttle or do I have something else to worry about?

Thanks to both of you for all of the information in the thread and a big thanks to EAS for sharing information that can help people make informed decisions irrespective of what side of the oil debate anyone is on.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by code7rpd

Are any of you seeing the pressure dip slightly when blipping the throttle or do I have something else to worry about?

I would have thought that this was a function of the Vanos....which uses the oil feed from the main oil pump.

Your oil pressure readings are quite interesting, (assuming IUC) if the max oil pressure is only reached when the 10W60 is cold it infers that its flow rate at normal operating temp will be the same as the flow rate for a 0W40 at least up to 6k rpm....it being a volume flow regulated oil pump with a pressure relief valve (set at around 95psi?).

[kawasaki00]

This is a crude video from 3500-8500.

[WCM3]

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but what kind of job is replacing the rod bearings with the VAC ones? I may be picking up a 2008 M3 and would rather be safe then sorry. Any DIYs on the boards?

[Petros]

Originally Posted by WCM3

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but what kind of job is replacing the rod bearings with the VAC ones? I may be picking up a 2008 M3 and would rather be safe then sorry. Any DIYs on the boards?

Not sure if anyone did a DIY for the M3. But there was a DIY for the E60 M5 which is a very similar car. You would have to remove the entire subframe and steering rack to be able to remove the oil pan. It's quite a detailed and complex job.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Petros

Not sure if anyone did a DIY for the M3. But there was a DIY for the E60 M5 which is a very similar car. You would have to remove the entire subframe and steering rack to be able to remove the oil pan. It's quite a detailed and complex job.

There's no need to completely remove the subframe, it can be tilted to lower the pan out.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

There's no need to completely remove the subframe, it can be tilted to lower the pan out.

Good info...I had the same question.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

There's no need to completely remove the subframe, it can be tilted to lower the pan out.

would it still be necessary to disconnect the steering rack and suspension control arms?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Petros

would it still be necessary to disconnect the steering rack and suspension control arms?

Just the subframe is lowered enough to get the pan out. No need to remove/disconnect steering rack or control arms.

Others shops may follow their own route.

[CSL_E36]

So I had the unfortunate luck of running over a rock on the fwy a few weeks ago.






Long story short, I had the car towed to my dealer and insurance picked up the tab. Damage from the rock resulted in broken underbody panels, left rear control arm, a dent to my Akra Evo, and most importantly, a hole in my oil pan!

My car is a 08 and had just a few clicks above 69k when the insident happened. I talked to my SA and inquired about the cost of doing rod bearing inspection/replacement, since the front subframe and pan would already be removed. The cost of 4 hours labor plus parts seemed worthwhile to me so i went ahead and had them done. I want to remind everyone that my car never exhibited any issues relating to the motor and performed flawlessly for 69k on 10w-60. I had 1 UOA done 7k miles ago and it showed very low copper levels. Dont mind the scratches on the lower bearings, they are from being in a plastic bag loose.

































A few mentionable notes from the master tech who did the work.

-The amount of wear on my old bearings is "normal" and "with in spec".
-Old bearings were measured using a micrometer and showed uniform wear. Good thing.
-New 702/703 were plastigauged and verified to be "with in spec".
-Crank had no marks or signs of scoring.
-Tech says to stick to 10w-60.
-Says bearing wear is normal on high rpm motors. "Either the bearings go or the crank does, guess which is more expensive?'

Some other interesting things he mentioned.

-Every S65 he has seen has had some sort of wear to the bearings. Some obviously worst then others, but just the "nature of the beast" were his words.
-In the 10 years he has been a tech at this dealer he had only seen 2 blown S65 motors and they were both found to be due to user error (miss shift, over rev). States the S65 is one of the most reliable motors he works on.
-He swears by using the recommended 10w-60, he told me a funny story that one of the newer techs went out to do a top off on a F80 M3 and had 10w-60 in his hand My tech stopped him before and asked him if he was sure that was the right oil? New tech responds with "yeah! its an M3 right?" My tech kindly asked him to go back into the shop and search the system for correct oil for F80...
-Specifically stated that following BMW 15k service intervals is not recommended. Oil changes every 5k for street use and 3k if including track time.
-Motors that rev this high are not meant to last 200k. His opinion is if you get 100k of street and track miles, you got your moneys worth. Bearing maintenance is something he says BMW should add to their inspection 3

So I got my car back a couple days ago and everything seems just as fine as before. I asked my SA if there was any break in period. He replied, No. No reduced revs, no early oil change. Just drive it he says. So I did! On the way home after getting her up to temp, a guy in a 1 series ahead of me is about to exit but sticks his hand out waving me by. I come up to pass him and he has a thumbs up hanging out the window So I quickly grabbed 5th, "WHAAP!" followed by 4th, "WHHRAAAAAAPP!" Perfect buttery smooth downshifts on my first attempt after not driving her for 2 weeks (that pretty much never happens I usually make a couple jerky downshifts before my timing gets up to speed)
In any case it feels great to be back behind the wheel of this motor again. Now I have some peace of mind for the next 60k I hope.


Although the dealer says no break in period is neccessary, I was thinking of having an oil change done after 1k just to get rid of any new metals from the fresh bearings. Thoughts on this?


My personal opinion on this "bearing problem" is mainly unchanged. Yes the S65 has bearing wear. As does the S85, S54, S14, and S38. This is nothing new to people who have been around M cars for years. Its a high maintenance motor. Learn to live with it. As others have mentioned all manufactures have their issues (Ford 5.0L, AMG 6.2, LSX, P-cars). Understanding what your brands issue is and maintaining the car around that is key for longevity. I will continue to use 10w-60 unless another oil is recommended by BMW. I still believe these blown motors we are seeing are factory defects from tolerance stack up when mass producing engines. I can agree that my bearings dont look "good" after 69k. I can also live with the fact that this motor will need fresh bearings every 60k, CODB- CostOfDoingBusiness in my book.



Shafique

[aussiem3]

Sorry for my ignorance Could someone tell me how a bearing wear will contribute to a bearing failure when through the wear the clearance between the crank and the bearing is increasing.

Is the failure the result of hammering due to the increased clearance thus dislodging the shells from the rods and forcing a misalignment?

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

... Shafique

So the excessive where on the top or the bottom?

[CSL_E36]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

So the excessive where on the top or the bottom?

High wear bearings are on top and usually are, caused mainly from engine braking.

Also forgot to mention the bearings are in no particular order, they are random and I just put the ones that looked alike together for pictures. Sorry for lack of clarity, however fact is bearings shows wear.

[CSL_E36]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Sorry for my ignorance Could someone tell me how a bearing wear will contribute to a bearing failure when through the wear the clearance between the crank and the bearing is increasing.

Is the failure the result of hammering due to the increased clearance thus dislodging the shells from the rods and forcing a misalignment?

Thats a great question. Who knows how long my motor would have continued to run with no issue. 100k? 150k?

The issues we discuss arising from more clearance, weather they are from resized bearings or worn bearings, can still have worst affects rather then better. Crank walk is one that comes to mind if you have too much clearance or not enough oil flow.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/crank-walk

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

Thats a great question. Who knows how long my motor would have continued to run with no issue. 100k? 150k?

The issues we discuss arising from more clearance, weather they are from resized bearings or worn bearings, can still have worst affects rather then better. Crank walk is one that comes to mind if you have too much clearance or not enough oil flow.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/crank-walk

Crank walk - something new I learnt today. Thank you for that. When my big end bearings were done as part of the E46 M3 recall, I had no wear whatsoever over a 40k km run. This is interesting, as I have raised before in various discussions, what's the accepted wear for an engine of this age and kms. I am sure know one can give a precise answer because the factors are multiple - weather, driving style, oil change interval, fuel ... you name it.

[MFL]

Of the journals are fucking contacting the bearings then it's not "by design" Lol.

Full dumbass.

[thekurgan]

LOL @ "No Dumping"

Glad you got it taken care of ... did your tech have any say over the newer bearings, as opposed to the older lead bearings he removed?

[CSL_E36]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

LOL @ "No Dumping"

Glad you got it taken care of ... did your tech have any say over the newer bearings, as opposed to the older lead bearings he removed?

Thanks and yea lol I happened to notice that sign after my car had emptied its self of all oil, woops!

Tech didn't say anything regarding the different materials of old vs new bearings. All he said was that there is only one part number for these (702/703) bearings and I/we already know that thanks to this forum. He did say its BMW procedure to plastigauge the newly installed bearings to verify clearances are with in spec. Not sure what their protocol would be if they found that clearances are too tight once new bearings are installed.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

High wear bearings are on top and usually are, caused mainly from engine braking.

Also forgot to mention the bearings are in no particular order, they are random and I just put the ones that looked alike together for pictures. Sorry for lack of clarity, however fact is bearings shows wear.

I'm confused as to why engine braking would cause bearing wear on the top shell.

Maybe Kawasaki can chime in? That doesn't sound correct to me but I could be wrong.

[SenorFunkyPants]

High wear on the top bearing is caused by the combustion stroke....its why the wear is offset to one side depending on which bank of the V it came from.