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      06-28-2014, 02:07 AM   #89
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Did I miss something? They stated the M3 weight is without fuel. A 16 gallon tank of gas is another 140 lbs.
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      06-28-2014, 02:09 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
Did I miss something? They stated the M3 weight is without fuel. A 16 gallon tank of gas is another 140 lbs.
Re-read the first post...

Quote:
2015 Alpine White M4 Specs
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Fuel: 1/2 Tank (no driver)
Weight: 3579lb
Buy a stripper car with 6MT and it's under 3,500 lbs.
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      06-28-2014, 02:11 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Yes you did... reread the first post...
Exactly. So did EAS screw up their M3 weight specs?

2015 Mineral White M3 Specs
0ZDB Driver Assistance Plus
0ZEC Executive Package
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02MK M Double-clutch Transmission (DCT)
02NK M Carbon Ceramic Brakes
02VF Adaptive M Suspension
02VZ 19" Black Wheel 437 M Mix Tire
Fuel: Empty (no driver)
Weight: 3562lb


Ah nevermind. I don't really care any more. Call me when the M2 arrives.
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      06-28-2014, 02:14 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
Exactly. So did EAS screw up their M3 weight specs?

2015 Mineral White M3 Specs
0ZDB Driver Assistance Plus
0ZEC Executive Package
0ZLP Lighting Package
02MK M Double-clutch Transmission (DCT)
02NK M Carbon Ceramic Brakes
02VF Adaptive M Suspension
02VZ 19" Black Wheel 437 M Mix Tire
Fuel: Empty (no driver)
Weight: 3562lb
Don't know... but the M4 is exactly where BMW said it would be.

Maybe the M3 is a pig just kidding.
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      06-28-2014, 02:21 AM   #93
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still confused on why they are excited about this dyno when a previous dyno got 465hp

not only go 465hp but 425lbs of torque
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      06-28-2014, 02:25 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.S.A View Post
not only go 465hp but 425lbs of torque
Different dyno... this has been discussed... the other dyno is not measuring power the same way.
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      06-28-2014, 02:26 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Different dyno... this has been discussed... the other dyno is not measuring power the same way.
Makes you want to facepalm yourself doesn't it???
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      06-28-2014, 02:26 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Different dyno... this has been discussed... the other dyno is not measuring power the same way.
Oh I SEE thanks. I been confused
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      06-28-2014, 02:26 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.S.A View Post
not only go 465hp but 425lbs of torque
not all dynos are created the same.

Call me a snob.. but I prefer Dynojet.... Mustang's dynos are also cool... but anything else I really can't be bothered with. Cool to see the multiple pass runs that they recorded as well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Thanks guys! This is the fun part of the job.


Not sure if BMS has posted their logs, but a boost source isn't easy to get to on these engines. We'll have a nozzle plumbed on the next M3 coming in so it can be embedded into the graph.
Outstanding thread. Amazing photos. Awesome attention to detail all around.

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 06-28-2014 at 02:32 AM..
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      06-28-2014, 04:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by phear_me View Post
Have you seen them in person? Black looks hard.
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      06-28-2014, 04:55 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
WHP (wheel horsepower) takes into account drivetrain losses (~10-15%) over crank hp (which is the number BMW states).

So if BMW says crank HP is 425 and we are seeing 425 WHP, you can do the math.


edit: and @stressdoc beat me to the punch

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong but is crank HP and BHP interchangeable? I'm fairly certain the mean the same thing.
The 3.0-litre M TwinPower Turbo straight six-cylinder engine offers drivers the best of both worlds: high rev characteristics with up to 7,600rpm and superior power with a maximum of 550Nm torque. The 431 hp M engine accelerates from 0 to 62 mph in just 4.1 seconds. Bi-Turbo direct fuel injection and typical M fine-tuning ensure that the engine responds directly to the slightest touch of the accelerator with tremendous boost and excellent torque. With its motorsport-suitable cooling concept and additional oil sump cover and oil drain pump, the M engine is ready to take on any challenge. Numerous innovations like sleeveless construction and a lighter, forged crankshaft continue the intelligent lightweight concept, improve dynamics and acceleration, lower fuel consumption and enable an optimal weight distribution of almost 50:50. The reward: unprecedentedly agile driving underscored by the unmistakeable sound of the M engine.
CO2 emissions in g/km 204.0 [194.0] [1]
Combined (ltr/100km)
Combined (mpg) 8.8 [8.3]
32.1 [34.0] [1]
Cylinders/valves per cylinder 6/4
Capacity (cc)
Capacity (cinch) 2979
182.00
Stroke/Bore (mm)
Stroke/Bore (inch) 89.6/84.0
3.50/3.30
Max output (kW/hp/rpm)
317 (431)/5500-7300 [2]
Max torque (Nm/rpm)
550/1850-5500
Compression ratio : 1
10.2

I dunno... Looks like you guys get the shaft w HP again...lol...

If we take the above figure from BMW site and extrapolate your dyne run, it comes to ~ 482bhp on 97-101 octane in UK. It felt immensely faster than the e92 M3 I used to drive to the dealer before the test drive...
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      06-28-2014, 07:16 AM   #100
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Can someone explain me howcome dyno results differ by those official stated by BMW by that much?

I don't believe that BMW doesn't know how to check and dyno their products.
It is also weird to me that NA engines always come out under rated opposed to FI engines.

Any thoughts?
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      06-28-2014, 07:40 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
Did I miss something? They stated the M3 weight is without fuel. A 16 gallon tank of gas is another 140 lbs.
60 liters of fuel is about 100lb.
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      06-28-2014, 09:00 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
These particular results assume equal drivetrain losses between the cars. Although this technically isn't true, it is obvious from prior real world performance numbers (E9X M3, F10 M5, etc.), that there are solid performance gains despite some additional losses for the mechatronics. If you think about how much power is required to move a clutch and move a syncro it surely isn't much power, regardless of being moved by a human or by hydraulics. Yes the M-DCT system moves those parts very fast but still, very little power is required. Thus I believe the losses are only insignificantly higher in the M-DCT.
I think it is a bit more complex than this. While I agree it takes relatively little power to activate the clutches and forks, the system that has to do this needs to be able to do it over a broad operating range, and therefore is not very efficient. The oil pump that supplies the system needs to be able to supply sufficient pressure and flow to shift and engage the clutch at idle. When not shifting, the pump is still turning and the work done by it is just dumped as heat in the oil. This gets worse with increased RPM. Further, having "wet clutches" also increases the overall drag. The higher the engine RPM, the higher the DCT % losses IMO. As a rough guess, I would add an additional 1~2% at Max RPM to drivetrain losses to account for DCT. There is a reason why the DCT needs an oil cooler.
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      06-28-2014, 09:06 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
Well when I see a car with no gas in the tank and the $8k fancy carbon ceramic brakes and it still weighs 3560 lbs I'm a bit perturbed. Add fuel and change to steel brakes and we're talking 3710 or more. Yeah I'm splitting 150 lb hairs here but if the M3 at EAS weighed 3560 with full gas tank and steel brakes then I would see that the spec'd weights match. But that's not the case. 150 lbs means something to me because that much weight is very hard to shed. What happened to the weight savings over the E9x? BMW billed the F8x as being ~200 lbs lighter. I'm not seeing that. I'm sure new car goggles look past things like this, but these cars are still quite heavy.

So, when the M2 spec is announced and they say it is 3100 lbs DIN/EU (ha!) and 3300 lbs US spec (also ha!), I'm already expecting the reality to be significantly off from the specs. Sorry to bring the M2 into this. I realize it isn't relevant to this thread, so carry on.
Adding Fuel is +100lb and removing CCB is +15lb. So 3677lb, not 3710lb. Still heavy, but no need to exagerate .

BTW, BMW said the new M4 is about 176lb lighter with 6MT. 132lb lighter with DCT.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-28-2014 at 09:30 AM..
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      06-28-2014, 09:11 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
EAS weighed a DCT car with steel brakes at 3,579 with 1/2 tank of gas. Where the hell are you getting 3,700 other than in make believe land?

BMW quoted 3,585 which is pretty much dead on.

If you don't like the weight of the car, that's fine then buy something else. There is no BMW conspiracy here... only people misinterpreting and misreading measurements that are done differently in different markets. But wait... BMW says 3,585 and EAS get 3,579... you are right! Misleading!
People keep mixing up and comparing weight between the M3 and M4. There is a 50lb difference between the two chassis.
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      06-28-2014, 09:17 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qbix View Post
Can someone explain me howcome dyno results differ by those official stated by BMW by that much?

I don't believe that BMW doesn't know how to check and dyno their products.
It is also weird to me that NA engines always come out under rated opposed to FI engines.

Any thoughts?
That is a big question several of us here are trying to figure out.

I have a hunch it has to do with testing standards and methodology when manufacturers establish their ratings. But I have not yet put the finger on the exact technical explanation.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-28-2014 at 09:31 AM..
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      06-28-2014, 09:34 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan
Yessss! New info! The M3 had no fuel, so the weight between these two cars is about the same.
As usual - great info and write up.
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      06-28-2014, 09:42 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeutonicFlight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yessss! New info! The M3 had no fuel, so the weight between these two cars is about the same.
As usual - great info and write up.
See post #17. They do not weigh the same. The M4 50lb lower weight relative to the M3 advertised by BMW seems correct.
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      06-28-2014, 09:45 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
These particular results assume equal drivetrain losses between the cars. Although this technically isn't true, it is obvious from prior real world performance numbers (E9X M3, F10 M5, etc.), that there are solid performance gains despite some additional losses for the mechatronics. If you think about how much power is required to move a clutch and move a syncro it surely isn't much power, regardless of being moved by a human or by hydraulics. Yes the M-DCT system moves those parts very fast but still, very little power is required. Thus I believe the losses are only insignificantly higher in the M-DCT.
Coupla points here. First (and on direct point), the power you need to shift isn't the direct issue. The power you need to drive an oil pump to xx psi is what you need to look at. One might assume the oil pressure will be fairly high, since speed is of the essence for the shift. Probably still not a ton of power, but...

Second, in your post showing comparison numbers between the stick and DCT, you used three tenths of a second for shift speeds. Way back when, we looked at shift speeds with an accelerometer, and deduced that two tenths was the actual shift speed, across a couple of speed-crazed drivers (with me being one). Best shifts were in the .18 -.19 second range, but two tenths seemed close enough.

Last, does your software allow for powershifting?

If so, it would be interesting to compare a two-tenths, powershifted MT against a 55-pound heavier (according to BMW) DCT. Not trying to prove anything here (DCT will still be quicker), but just curious.
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      06-28-2014, 10:48 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfl View Post
Interesting how the car reacts to heat soak. Losing around 30whp 30wtq. Did the boost drop or just timing?
That's something that has caught my eye with these dyno runs. I'm guessing timing is being adjusted. Unfortunately this is something that plagues turbocharged vehicles. Doesn't make a difference for a street car but will have an affect when at a road course in moderate to high temps.

Given the fact that I always take dyno results with a grain of salt, I must admit that I'm impressed with the numbers this thing is putting down on 91 pump. I wonder what 93 will make or e85 for the brave ones who go that route.
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      06-28-2014, 10:59 AM   #110
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Well we now know this 3300 lbs hype was/is BS.
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