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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Boost Info for Race application



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      12-08-2013, 06:07 PM   #1
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Boost Info for Race application

So I'm new to the N54 but I've owned and built a few turbo motors. What kind of boost levels are guys running. Is it common to go low compression has any one had to fire ring or stud the motor or have we yet to stress them that far. I've tried a couple of quick searches for MTS gaskets ec and haven't seen much. IMO if we are going to start swapping turbos we should start pushing the envelope. If anyone has any stories of failure modes. I'm interested in switching to a 1 series track car and want to practice a bit on my 335xi with tuning etc. Ultimately I'll build a race motor for the 1 series so I want info to decide what to do. If I'm going low compression high boost or similar I want to start getting some numbers now so I can map out what I'll want to run.
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      12-08-2013, 06:25 PM   #2
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Last edited by pwr hungry; 12-08-2013 at 06:34 PM..
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      12-08-2013, 06:49 PM   #3
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No-one has pushed the N54 to the limit yet(or at least are willing to talk about it.) Fortunately, beefed up internals are already available from a couple different sources when that need does arise, including Advanced BMW Repair of Houston and VAC. There is a variety of new options on the horizon that will hopefully put those internals to use.


Dzenno@PTF has experimented with head work and at hybrid turbo power levels has seen roughly a 50whp gain in power with just mild upgrades. Running big turbos will more than likely see an even bigger gain.
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      12-09-2013, 03:46 AM   #4
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Some good info over where I got sent. However I think this community is a little better If I wanted an 8 cyl track car I would stick with a SBC. Not impressed with the way they push the M3 in the N54 forum. Anyhow is fuel delivery an issue at the 600+ levels Is there room on duration etc or is that the current tuning issue that guys are having with the new turbos. I was considering whether it might not be worth it at high hp applications to add a set of AUX injectors to the runners on a boost/rpm trigger. They would add a base line fueling and you tune the stock injectors to add additional in cylinder for the required level.
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      12-09-2013, 04:07 AM   #5
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If you were to pursue that fueling option I would recommend the opposite. Use the stock fuel system in all conditions until further fueling is required and then trigger the secondary fuel system to step in when required. It will be MUCH easier to keep the DME happy doing it that way... In fact, that would be the only way without a stand alone.
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      12-09-2013, 04:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen@PTF View Post
If you were to pursue that fueling option I would recommend the opposite. Use the stock fuel system in all conditions until further fueling is required and then trigger the secondary fuel system to step in when required. It will be MUCH easier to keep the DME happy doing it that way... In fact, that would be the only way without a stand alone.

Yeah not sure if i made that clear. If we say we run out of available pulse/duration at 4000 rpm a secondary set of injectors start adding 200cc fuel. Then stock makes up additional 300cc lets say. So your essentially preloading the cylinder to allow for a better pulse delivery/more fuel if we can't get higher flowing injectors. Numbers are probably way off but I hope you get the idea.
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      12-09-2013, 07:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
Yeah not sure if i made that clear. If we say we run out of available pulse/duration at 4000 rpm a secondary set of injectors start adding 200cc fuel. Then stock makes up additional 300cc lets say. So your essentially preloading the cylinder to allow for a better pulse delivery/more fuel if we can't get higher flowing injectors. Numbers are probably way off but I hope you get the idea.
That's basically the exact same thing I've been thinking about, but was informed that we are really approaching the limits of what we can safely get out of pump gas with stock compression safely. Maybe a set of lower compression pistons to reduce the chance of knocking and then keep adding fuel?
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      12-09-2013, 10:08 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
That's basically the exact same thing I've been thinking about, but was informed that we are really approaching the limits of what we can safely get out of pump gas with stock compression safely. Maybe a set of lower compression pistons to reduce the chance of knocking and then keep adding fuel?
Ok now I think we are getting somewhere. Ok so I'll put out my ideas here and let’s see if we can narrow down what we should swap in instead.

Bottom End:
From what I understand with even inadequate oiling on some engines do to failures we have yet to see a thrown rod due to suspected failure of crank/rods/wrist pin. If this is the case maybe a piston swap max and rods if necessary to do that until I pop something. This is the expensive way to test power levels of components but I don't see the point of upgrading something until we find it's weak point. Dry sump oil system with reservoir and large cooler.

Top End:
Valve job, port matching,

Charge Air:
custom intake with secondary injectors and vband flanges. Full core FMIC with secondary air/water cooler. BOV's and e-boost 2 from turbo smart or equivalents.

Turbos:
Sequential turbo setup. Running a stock/RB size turbo for low rpm and Large turbo for high rpm. Use a cutout valve to isolate large turbo and help spooling time and lag.

Engine Management/Monitoring:
Possibly run stock ecu with flash and piggyback if I can find some way of integration with whatever I use for secondary fueling and wideband monitoring. Otherwise standalone. Currently rigging up a prototype system to run monitoring in car. If I can then merge this with a secondary system for egt/wideband.
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      12-09-2013, 10:38 AM   #9
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Welcome to the forum

Re: Oiling. There are some starvation issues for folks who track heavily; a dry sump would obviously be optimal. In the meantime, VAC makes a baffle that seems to work well. The bottom end really doesn’t need to be touched, as you noted perhaps drop the compression for more headroom on pump. But the crank is extremely stout, and I don’t think I’ve come across a thrown rod yet. A few meth induced hydrolocks have bent things and you’ll see the odd ringland damage…but generally speaking the N54 is very strong. No one knows when the bottom end will come apart, so far it’s seen 700+ wheel with no observable issues.

Re: top end. I would agree, basic head work should get things in a very nice spot. Oversized valves would be nice. The intake side can really be improved upon, based on the one N54 head I’ve seen in person. DZ and @enrita have both had good results with modified N54 heads.

Re: fueling. It’s tricky. Supplemental PI would be nice and at one point PROefr was working on it…but the complete silence from the community speaks volumes. Right now people are using methanol as fuel up top, high concentrations of E85 can be run with the proper upgrades but even then the car isn’t always happy. So right now, it’s waterhoses of meth or nada.

Re: Turbos. Drastically different turbos will require some serious tuning, very likely you will need a stand-alone. MSD80/1 assumes more or less identical flow between bank 1 and bank 2, if you were to swap in a “large” frame turbo in tandem with a stock frame, the car would have absolutely no idea what was going on. You’d have serious lambda issues. Obviously you have already accounted for this, but know that retaining the factory DME will be a serious, serious undertaking.
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      12-09-2013, 11:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Welcome to the forum

Re: Oiling. There are some starvation issues for folks who track heavily; a dry sump would obviously be optimal. In the meantime, VAC makes a baffle that seems to work well. The bottom end really doesn’t need to be touched, as you noted perhaps drop the compression for more headroom on pump. But the crank is extremely stout, and I don’t think I’ve come across a thrown rod yet. A few meth induced hydrolocks have bent things and you’ll see the odd ringland damage…but generally speaking the N54 is very strong. No one knows when the bottom end will come apart, so far it’s seen 700+ wheel with no observable issues.

Re: top end. I would agree, basic head work should get things in a very nice spot. Oversized valves would be nice. The intake side can really be improved upon, based on the one N54 head I’ve seen in person. DZ and @enrita have both had good results with modified N54 heads.

Re: fueling. It’s tricky. Supplemental PI would be nice and at one point PROefr was working on it…but the complete silence from the community speaks volumes. Right now people are using methanol as fuel up top, high concentrations of E85 can be run with the proper upgrades but even then the car isn’t always happy. So right now, it’s waterhoses of meth or nada.

Re: Turbos. Drastically different turbos will require some serious tuning, very likely you will need a stand-alone. MSD80/1 assumes more or less identical flow between bank 1 and bank 2, if you were to swap in a “large” frame turbo in tandem with a stock frame, the car would have absolutely no idea what was going on. You’d have serious lambda issues. Obviously you have already accounted for this, but know that retaining the factory DME will be a serious, serious undertaking.
A sequential setup designed for fast spool would be similar to a single turbo. All cylinders feed both turbos. The turbine dP is increased via a knife gate on the large turbo. Once good boost is reached the knife gate will start to open allowing pre-spool and the additional power of the larger turbo. Should be no more difficult to account for as both banks will be essentially equal. Also known individual cylinder EGT's verified at good AFR will allow for lean check during heavy use.
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      12-09-2013, 11:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
A sequential setup designed for fast spool would be similar to a single turbo. All cylinders feed both turbos. The turbine dP is increased via a knife gate on the large turbo. Once good boost is reached the knife gate will start to open allowing pre-spool and the additional power of the larger turbo. Should be no more difficult to account for as both banks will be essentially equal. Also known individual cylinder EGT's verified at good AFR will allow for lean check during heavy use.
That’s an interesting idea, don’t think it has been attempted on this platform. To this point we’ve seen stock frame upgrades, large singles, and a prototype big twin setup.

So what you’re suggesting is a single manifold with runners merging down to a single knife gate that opens as you spool? So in effect, bank 1 flow would be almost identical to bank 2 flow?

Honestly for what you are suggesting I still think full stand-alone EMS would be superior to the factory DME…but it’s a cool thought. Good news would be that if you could keep the factory DME, it does a very good job of managing short term trim on the fueling side.
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      12-09-2013, 12:01 PM   #12
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I found something simillar he has his drawing setup different and square turbos because he is still going for late boost. ie post 4K.

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/articles/sequential.htm

I would have the knife gate on the outlet of the second turbo with a smaller line around. I'll have to look into it further to see what I'll do. I know how I would control it at work on industrial gear just need to find equivalent stuff the right size and materails for this application.
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Last edited by Ingeniator; 12-09-2013 at 12:04 PM.. Reason: Added info.
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      12-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #13
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Now that is awesome, I’ve never seen anything like that drawn up for this platform.

So you’d essentially be running these in series, that way the readings between banks would be identical regardless of where you placed the wideband?

Very cool idea.
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      12-09-2013, 12:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
I found something simillar he has his drawing setup different and square turbos because he is still going for late boost. ie post 4K.

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/articles/sequential.htm

I would have the knife gate on the outlet of the second turbo with a smaller line around. I'll have to look into it further to see what I'll do. I know how I would control it at work on industrial gear just need to find equivalent stuff the right size and materails for this application.
I would see space as being your biggest issue with a sequential setup...but then I guess it really just depends on what size turbos you had in mind to begin with.
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      12-09-2013, 12:12 PM   #15
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How far “down stream” of the first turbo would you theoretically place the second? I profess ignorance to this type of setup in theory or practice, so apologies for being the question asker.

If the smaller turbo were stock frame and the larger not too ridiculous, I could see it working from a space standpoint. Packaging all that would be a real task though, not much room on the hot side.
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      12-09-2013, 12:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
I would see space as being your biggest issue with a sequential setup...but then I guess it really just depends on what size turbos you had in mind to begin with.
I was thinking about tubing the front of the chassis. Remember this will be for a track only application.
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      12-09-2013, 12:20 PM   #17
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That is a BMW one on one of the diesels. Like I said this is more just to flesh out the ideas and identify the glaring issues. I would need to figure out the turbo sizing I'm thinking the first single might need to be a little bigger than stock frame and the larger one with my idea can be placed directly after a why from the firs outlet. The Y is sized to allow the first turbo to satisfy minimum flow for the second turbo. Then the gate on the outlet of the second turbo opens to bring it on stream. It will likely result in a significant boost kick but like I said a lot of time will need to be spent on all the piping and turbo sizing.
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      12-09-2013, 12:23 PM   #18
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Yep. It'll be the packaging that presents you with the largest problem. Well, that and tuning the damn thing if you keep the factory DME.
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      12-09-2013, 12:55 PM   #19
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You must really like challenges if you wish to do this with the N54. If you are looking at tubing something and going all out, why not choose a more mod friendly platform? Or hell, at least the N55 which is already programmed for a single exhaust stream wideband 02 sensor.
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      12-09-2013, 01:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWTT335i View Post
You must really like challenges if you wish to do this with the N54. If you are looking at tubing something and going all out, why not choose a more mod friendly platform? Or hell, at least the N55 which is already programmed for a single exhaust stream wideband 02 sensor.
Agreed.


But if he goes with a '55 then you run into tuning issues. If he decides to keep the factory N55 DME it will kick his ass trying to tune it based off what tables people have access to right now.


OP bottom line is this platform is going to fight you tooth and nail if you try such a major change. If you merge the exhaust banks things will go nutty, and if you attempt to keep them "split" via an in-series FI setup there are big time packaging limitations. It is probably doable...but get ready for serious frustrations.
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      12-09-2013, 01:17 PM   #21
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I've already done a few of the standard cars. I'm setting up to get into circuit racing and maybe rally. Also I'm not sure what part of tubing the front would make it any harder then any other unibody. Looks like most of the 1 series track cars are runing wide body kits anyway. This just prevents me from paying through the nose for suspension parts.
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      12-11-2013, 04:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
I've already done a few of the standard cars. I'm setting up to get into circuit racing and maybe rally. Also I'm not sure what part of tubing the front would make it any harder then any other unibody. Looks like most of the 1 series track cars are runing wide body kits anyway. This just prevents me from paying through the nose for suspension parts.
If you have a controller for the knife gate why not just run a VGT? C'mon brah.
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