[Brian_VACsales]

These were laying around so I figured I'd have my pic guy grab some pics.

Yes, we will have forged pistons and rods available in the next few mos ;-)

[F80M]

Some hardcore material in here...

[CJ421]

Mike I was trying to lay low for a while ...now this ...oh dear!!

[Lifted07Duramax]

Get an N54 and you don't have to worry about getting forged internals lol

[Everfly]

Nice

[-Wingman-]

Originally Posted by Lifted07Duramax

Get an N54 and you don't have to worry about getting forged internals lol

.....not this again. They don't come with a full forged internal system. It's only the crank that is forged, and that tends to be one of the last things to go out on an engine anyways.

[335iFFM]

I've seen this yesterday on your homepage and I'm really interested. Just two things:
- Do I need any calibration of the engine internals?
- Do I just need the Rods + Pistons or also the bearings?

Best,
M

[Brian_VACsales]

Hi M, I've featured OEM components in this thread. We will offer forged performance units in a few months.

That said, stock internals are fine until you really start pushing the limit and making big power. N54 guys are making 700+hp on stock internals so *most* people have no reason to build their engine unless there is some sort of failure OR they are looking to push the limits and make huge power. Of course durability is greatly reduced when you are pushing the stock components past their intended max for obvious reasons.

Quality forged internals are designed to handle big stress (power, torque, revs, stress - you name it) :-) In order to change pistons/rods you need to fully 'rebuild' your engine for performance use. That can cost 10k+ with good components.

[335iFFM]

Hi Mike.
So you think the stock N55 internals are strong enough to withstand the power output produced with the New Vargas Turbos? Seems like we are taking about 500whp here.

Regarding the N54. What's your experience regarding their internals? Forged or casted (crank is obviously forged, so only Connection Ross and Pistons are interesting). I've read huge threads about this. So I'm just asking for YOUR own experience. Not for one of those "N55 is fail!!!!!!11" guys.

Third and last question: Upgrade crank or not? Is a casted crank generally strong enough? I know you aren't an Oracle. I'm just asking for a professional opinion :-)

Best,
Manuel

[Brian_VACsales]

No idea really. We typically build cars that eat up stock internals ;-) We haven't pushed a stock N54 to the limits, though we have 2 clients that properly road race them and they seem to be holding up nicely. The turbos are the common failure point on their engines. 500hp is no problem for the N54, not sure why an N55 would be worse.

As with any platform, hotrodders find the limits and keep going. They realize a 700hp engine on stock internals is inferior to a 700hp engine on quality forged aftermarket internals. CP, Carrillo and Arrow is what we sell for the most part.

cast/forged: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10639133

Cranks are fine for most. There are no upgraded cranks available anyways and I doubt there will be any demand ever for an aftermarket 'stock displacement' crank.

FTR, I'm long on the N55.

[135Pats]

The cast rods are the only part that would scare me, the crank should be fine, and if combustion is good the pistons should hold up. The rods though…IDK. A lot of torque will go through them once the OE turbo gets tossed out, so we'll see how it holds up. 2014 should be a really good year for the N55, i'm excited to see how she holds up!

Thanks for the pictures VAC I love looking at this stuff. Wish we could see more N54 or N55 tear downs.

[335iFFM]

Hi Mike.
Thank you for answer. As you've might seen I'm not from the US. What does "I'm long on the N55" mean? :-P

Best,
Manuel

[Brian_VACsales]

Cool. it means, I really like the N55 and I think the tuning/performance options in the future will be very good!

[turugara]

Market speak on car forums. Next thing you know we'll be pulling out credit derivative swaps...

[FrankiE90]

very nice VAC!

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by 335iFFM

Hi Mike.
Thank you for answer. As you've might seen I'm not from the US. What does "I'm long on the N55" mean? :-P

Best,
Manuel

stems form finance, to be "long" on something means you are optimistic about the prospects, ie you think a stock price will go up so you buy, hence you have a long position

back to car stuffs

[BavarianBullet]

Forged doesn't mean much in the OEM context anymore. That mindset came from decades ago before modern alloys (hypereutectic etc) and tight piston to wall clearances became common on OEM engines for emissions reasons.

It all comes down to design- shape, clearances etc, not so much materials used as even cast stuff is pretty strong these days.

FWIW, that N55 rod looks pretty nice.

Piston is a little more concerning as the reliefs cut pretty far into the crown near the top ring.

As Mike said, the crank is usually the last thing to worry about. The block on the N54 and N55 have a nice design to contain the main bearings. I wouldn't sweat it.

Thanks for the pix Mike!

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by BavarianBullet

Forged doesn't mean much in the OEM context anymore. That mindset came from decades ago before modern alloys (hypereutectic etc) and tight piston to wall clearances became common on OEM engines for emissions reasons.

It all comes down to design- shape, clearances etc, not so much materials used as even cast stuff is pretty strong these days.

FWIW, that N55 rod looks pretty nice.

Piston is a little more concerning as the reliefs cut pretty far into the crown near the top ring.

As Mike said, the crank is usually the last thing to worry about. The block on the N54 and N55 have a nice design to contain the main bearings. I wouldn't sweat it.

Thanks for the pix Mike!

I agree with the bulk of your post, with a hypereutectic cast the crank is going to be fine, short of enormous torque. However based on these pictures (granted, limited view) the N54 rod looks to be thicker with less taper at the pin (though I don't like how much it tapers on the 54 either), and despite the high quality of the cast, forged is almost always till going to maintain design integrity under load better. The 55 piston isn't going to melt, but as you noted the rings don't look particularly thick, and there is a substantial cut in the piston crown.

Of course this is all just conjecture until we see 500WHP N55s on the road. I feel fairly confident that the 54 is a more robust motor, but that doesn't really mean much as there are few blocks on the market as strong. I think the 55 will handle 500whp and corresponding torque no problem. DCT will be a serious, serious issue though. So 6MT will be even more important if you plan on big power.

Just my 2C, thanks again for the pics VAC.

[BavarianBullet]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I agree with the bulk of your post, with a hypereutectic cast the crank is going to be fine, short of enormous torque. However based on these pictures (granted, limited view) the N54 rod looks to be thicker with less taper at the pin (though I don't like how much it tapers on the 54 either), and despite the high quality of the cast, forged is almost always till going to maintain design integrity under load better.

The truth is, these N55 rods look very much like they are "powdered metal, forged". That gives them a cast appearance because of how they are made, but in the end they use one of the many types of forging processes. So technically, they are still "forged"...

Another point is that powered metal forged can use some pretty strong alloys, stronger than some of the steels (4340) traditionally used for what most people would agree are good old fashioned forged steel con rods. Even then, regardless of the rod material, you still must have a good rod bolt and bearing/oiling design (cough, s65).

To top it all off, some aftermarket rods have been appearing as powdered metal forged as well. It comes down to design.

There are examples out there and I came across this article that does a decent job explaining it. http://www.circletrack.com/nls/139_0...s/viewall.html

Lot of talk about rods. I'd still be more worried about the pistons.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by BavarianBullet

The truth is, these N55 rods look very much like they are "powdered metal, forged". That gives them a cast appearance because of how they are made, but in the end they use one of the many types of forging processes. So technically, they are still "forged"...

Another point is that powered metal forged can use some pretty strong alloys, stronger than some of the steels (4340) traditionally used for what most people would agree are good old fashioned forged steel con rods. Even then, regardless of the rod material, you still must have a good rod bolt and bearing/oiling design (cough, s65).

To top it all off, some aftermarket rods have been appearing as powdered metal forged as well. It comes down to design.

There are examples out there and I came across this article that does a decent job explaining it. http://www.circletrack.com/nls/139_0...s/viewall.html

Lot of talk about rods. I'd still be more worried about the pistons.

I’ll give that a read, thanks for passing along. My concern over the connecting rods are more based on design than manufacturing method. Agreed, forged or cast, from a material standpoint they’re probably up to the job. I just don’t like how thin they are, and the degree to which the wrist pin tapers down. Cracked cap true forged rods would be preferable.

The pistons aren’t particularly impressive, ringlands look modest. Not what you want for a lot of boost.

We’ll just have to see, the N55 is an unkown above 400whp. We know the 54 will take over 600 without head or short block issues, let’s see how the 55 gets on.

Good discussion

[BavarianBullet]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I’ll give that a read, thanks for passing along. My concern over the connecting rods are more based on design than manufacturing method. Agreed, forged or cast, from a material standpoint they’re probably up to the job. I just don’t like how thin they are, and the degree to which the wrist pin tapers down. Cracked cap true forged rods would be preferable.

The pistons aren’t particularly impressive, ringlands look modest. Not what you want for a lot of boost.

We’ll just have to see, the N55 is an unkown above 400whp. We know the 54 will take over 600 without head or short block issues, let’s see how the 55 gets on.

Good discussion

Agreed. Great discussion!

I don't think you can get traditionally forged (eg billet) rods with cracked caps. I had read that was because of the metal properties (too ductile?).

I think if you put a pig turbo on the N55 as has been done already on the N54, it will respond similar and hold together about as well. The larger turbo makes power with RPM, not brutal torque in the mid-range, all with lower back pressure. So be a bit better for the pistons in particular.

Finger crosses for Vargas and RB on this!

[Dozhdbog]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

DCT will be a serious, serious issue though. So 6MT will be even more important if you plan on big power.

Just my 2C, thanks again for the pics VAC.

Isn't the e90 6 speed a/t rated for higher power than the MT? Isn't that why BMW keeps the torque lower on the MT in their PPKs vs the a/t?