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      04-05-2014, 03:03 PM   #23
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Bmw lost to Audi the moment they went to the 4 cyl turbo. Bring back the inline 6!
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      04-05-2014, 03:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m@rco
Quote:
Originally Posted by E93FTW View Post
I feel BMW is not a leader anymore;they just follow.... Little 4-cyl engines,hybrids,electrics!!!!, cars are feeling less connected to the road than ever. BMW always had that touch that made it different .... Not anymore:..
Yes, the 4-cylinder thingy is just a shame for us, BMW admirers. But, unfortunately, the majority of BMW drivers wouldn't even know how many cylinders their car has... Or worse, what a cylinder is... And to stay competitive and to be in line with regulations (reduce average CO2 emissions on entire car fleet), BMW just had to build smaller engines.

I'm just hoping that one day, the non-turbo 6-cylinder returns to their cars. For me, that is one of the main reasons to drive BMW.
+1

4 cylinder is practical but it doesn't sound good, it sounds cheap.
Steering is a big turn off.
I hope the 2 series will come out good.
Time will tell, if Audi starts making good raw cars and AudiFest starts(if not already), enthusiasts ll start jumping.
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      04-05-2014, 03:38 PM   #25
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4 cylinder BMWs have been around for a LONG TIME. Hello? Europe.

Lest we not forget the US cars:
E30 M3
E30 318i
E36 318is
Z3
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      04-05-2014, 03:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
The 2.0T are a total JOKE.

Not only do they kill the driving experience, but their results are questionable.

It is not for nothing that Honda / Toyota / Nissan stick to their V6. The truth is that they don't cost more in fuel ($) and the driving experience of a V6 can't be matched with a 4.

Shame BMW, SHAME.
Have you actually ever owned a high powered 2.0T? This is a Frankenturbo K04 hybrid

This is a custom tune (yeah same Alientech interface as OFT)

This is a 4cyl turbo car you think is too good for a BMW (but good enough for Audi, Mercedes, Cadillac, Saab, Buick, Subaru, Mazda, Ford, Mitsubishi and the good people at BMW)



Its certainly more fun than a stock turbo N54/N55 which even when faster (which is not the case unless your FBO) falls flat on its face after 5500rpm while that 4cyl turbo above was pushing 24psi @ 7000rpm and had a usable top end. The "regular" BMW 6 cyls are slow as balls period. There is no good experience being slow as balls. So unless you have an M 6/8/10 cyl I beg to differ. I don't find the N54 to be particularly refined and smooth either before you go there. Before the turbo four I had a VR6 which was much smoother and sounded WAY better than a N54. Before that I had a DSM 2.0T turbo. So I've had two turbo 4cyl and two 6cyl and I never found any great driving experience advantage from one to the other. A $500 tune will make the BMW 4cyl turbo more engine than a NA equivalent BMW 6cyl could ever dream of being without throwing a ton into it. The results are only questionable because if they made it the way they easily could have no one would buy 335/435s (I don't mean this literally before you argue that sarcasm). They could have just as easily thrown a bigger turbo and threw boost at it like the Mercedes AMG CL45

Last edited by stanlalee; 04-05-2014 at 03:50 PM..
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      04-05-2014, 04:13 PM   #27
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Bmw makes there engines slow as balls for a reason, marketing. I've had an 06 325, slow as balls, if they would have used that motor more to its potential why would anyone buy a 330. Then they came out with the n54 the following year, it has numbers of a big six not an eight cylinder, why because it still competes with everything in its class and left room to make the m3 that much better. Its all about selling cars and making people want more.
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      04-05-2014, 06:41 PM   #28
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Man.. is everyone missing the point here? Why is this "BMW going downhill" shouldn't we be seeing this as the rest of the world catching up? MB and AUDI are FINALLY catching up, thank god! now the consumer will actually have plenty of choices and prices should be far more competitive! I don't know about you, but nothing pleases me more then having plenty of solid options priced aggressively.... you all sound like BMW is the chariot of god himself, and the rest of the automotive world should never even come close to its superiority. How about looking at it half glass full? F30 sucks, everyone agrees, so get an S4/S3, get a CLA-45 AMG, at a price that is more competitive then AMG's ever were. Gotta stop drinking the BMW kool-aid. They started cutting costs long before the f30 (lci's couldnt afford to have insulation under the hood because it was cutting into the profit margin.)
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      04-05-2014, 09:27 PM   #29
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F30 drives like a vw gti
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      04-06-2014, 01:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bender rodriguez
F30 drives like a vw gti
Damn now thats not good
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      04-06-2014, 02:23 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwpride335i View Post
I am not talking about single article on a magazine but lately NUMEROUS articles had BMW actually losing against Audi. I remember BMW always crushing Audis on a comparo all the time.

Nowadays Audi is substantially more competitive against BMW in terms of performance and design. Heck, I even saw BMW losing on to Audi on STEERING FEEL catagory.

I am hardcore BMW fan but what the hell? BMW is slowly losing ground and I am afraid Audi will slowly pass BMW by. With all these wacky models (such as gran coupe sh*t) BMW is getting watered down, seriously.

Someone tell BMW!
This post really seems like it was trolling for all kinds of responses, but I'll take the bait anyway. In short, no one truly knows if BMW is going down because no one can predict the future. However, just because BMW has a new generation that is not on top, doesn't mean the company is going down.

Every car company, and every company period, goes through ups and downs. For the past few years, BMW's 3 series were considered to be among the best of the luxury-sports sector, if not the very best. The reviews on the newest generation (F3x 3 and 4 series) are mixed, but basically they aren't considered to be the absolute best right now. For the longest time the Japanese companies made some of the best economy cars while the US competition sucked. Now US companies like Ford are making cars that compete with or outright beat the Japanese in that sector.

There should be no surprise or concern over this. If the quality of BMW cars continuously degrades over the next decade, than yeah, you should be concerned. Give BMW a chance to do R&D, refine and innovate as they always have. And let's be honest, though the current 3 and 4 series aren't considered the best, they are still decent enough; it's not like they are totally lacking quality and performance.
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      04-06-2014, 02:41 AM   #32
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The facts seem to be that people really don't give a shit about driving. They don't. They want a car, they want gadgets, and they want a badge. When regular people say "eh but the BMW steering is too hard" they buy the light steering Merc. Have you ever tried to explain cars to a regular person? Or just talk about them? I went to a car show with my GF earlier this year and she didn't understand who I was there. I was a psycho to her, "who the fuck names off engine specs of fiat products, and what is a transmission?" She asks.

The enthusiast aura around BMW has made it famous. And people have flocked to get a piece. It's one of the reasons I got mine over an Audi, because I "knew" that it was a drivers car. It had a mystique. Where am I going with this? Not sure, it's 2am so who cares. This topic gets brought up everytime BMW releases a new tire stem cap "o no BMW lost way, much shame!!"
"GIVE ME AN e30, I've never driven one but I will be set IM SO CONNECTED to this roundabout that gets me to work, wow the tire valve are so much better in the E30!!"

Brands evolve. Audi and many others caught up. They make great cars too now, BMW knows this. They know about the enthusiasts too...but competition is good, it makes for better cars and more choices. They still offer manuals for Christ sakes give them a break. Yes the EPS was half baked. They should have waited a generation to get it right. I think the results in M3/4 will be telling.

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      04-06-2014, 06:08 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
This post really seems like it was trolling for all kinds of responses, but I'll take the bait anyway. In short, no one truly knows if BMW is going down because no one can predict the future. However, just because BMW has a new generation that is not on top, doesn't mean the company is going down.

Every car company, and every company period, goes through ups and downs. For the past few years, BMW's 3 series were considered to be among the best of the luxury-sports sector, if not the very best. The reviews on the newest generation (F3x 3 and 4 series) are mixed, but basically they aren't considered to be the absolute best right now. For the longest time the Japanese companies made some of the best economy cars while the US competition sucked. Now US companies like Ford are making cars that compete with or outright beat the Japanese in that sector.

There should be no surprise or concern over this. If the quality of BMW cars continuously degrades over the next decade, than yeah, you should be concerned. Give BMW a chance to do R&D, refine and innovate as they always have. And let's be honest, though the current 3 and 4 series aren't considered the best, they are still decent enough; it's not like they are totally lacking quality and performance.
Well I think a decade is a bit too long to make judgment here and the evidence is upon us now. The F10 and the F30 have both deteriorated in quality; that quality being the driving experience. BMWs have always offered a superior driving experience, which is where the brand gained its reputation, and few people (we now call them enthusiasts) originally appreciated that quality. But when you compare the current BMW models to their predecessors, the new cars do not offer the same quality of the driving experience, which points to BMW loosing its way, even the while other manufacturers are "catching up".

It has been reported numerous times in various publications that the E90 wins driving comparos when pitted against the F30, and the new Cadillac CTS offers best-in-class handling above its counterparts. My 800+ mile evaluation of the ATS proved to me it drives better than the F30. I can tell you that after 26 years of BMW ownership my next car will not be a BMW. That decision comes from BMW loosing its way and other manufacturers offering a better product for me, which for me the driving experience needs to come above all else. When you couple the expense of a BMW, along with inferior reliability (of some models), proliferation of the brand to the point where every soccer Mom drives an X-Series (), and a driving experience that is not better than the competition, there is no longer a benefit of ownership.
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      04-06-2014, 08:00 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriztofor
Bmw lost to Audi the moment they went to the 4 cyl turbo. Bring back the inline 6!
But Audi has been making four-cylinder turbos for years
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      04-06-2014, 10:02 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
This post really seems like it was trolling for all kinds of responses, but I'll take the bait anyway. In short, no one truly knows if BMW is going down because no one can predict the future. However, just because BMW has a new generation that is not on top, doesn't mean the company is going down.

Every car company, and every company period, goes through ups and downs. For the past few years, BMW's 3 series were considered to be among the best of the luxury-sports sector, if not the very best. The reviews on the newest generation (F3x 3 and 4 series) are mixed, but basically they aren't considered to be the absolute best right now. For the longest time the Japanese companies made some of the best economy cars while the US competition sucked. Now US companies like Ford are making cars that compete with or outright beat the Japanese in that sector.

There should be no surprise or concern over this. If the quality of BMW cars continuously degrades over the next decade, than yeah, you should be concerned. Give BMW a chance to do R&D, refine and innovate as they always have. And let's be honest, though the current 3 and 4 series aren't considered the best, they are still decent enough; it's not like they are totally lacking quality and performance.
Trolling? what the heck are you talking about? I wrote it for what it is: disappointed and alarmed at where BMW is heading to. Audi IS beating BMW across the board in comparos.
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      04-06-2014, 10:48 AM   #36
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At the 3 level at least BMW is catering to the masses now.

At the 3 level at least BMW is catering to the masses now.
Its doing it using the momentum it gained during the days
when it was top dog in the enthusiast German cars are so much
better era. And they can really charge a premium in a lot of
countrys like China where badges mean more than the car
itself.
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      04-06-2014, 11:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwpride335i View Post
Audi IS beating BMW across the board in comparos.
Who would have thought...a german car brand is outperforming another german car brand....what is the universe coming to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
At the 3 level at least BMW is catering to the masses now.
Its doing it using the momentum it gained during the days
when it was top dog in the enthusiast German cars are so much
better era. And they can really charge a premium in a lot of
countrys like China where badges mean more than the car
itself.
$42,000 starting MSRP's, optional 6MT, a whole selection of performance options...that doesn't sound like 'catering to the masses' to me. It sounds like a car company that is catering to car buyers who have money to spend. BMW has always charged a premium. And the badge seems to attract buyers in many countries, not just China.
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      04-06-2014, 11:13 AM   #38
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Just saw the 3rd new X5 I've seen on the road yesterday. It's UGLY. Seriously. I have no idea what has gotten into this car co., as if looks on top of mechanicals no longer matter.
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      04-06-2014, 11:14 AM   #39
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Some if not most of the changes are due to government regulations. The easiest example to see is the high hood lines for pedestrian safety. These new requirements have dramatically changed how cars look. As these requirements increase the choices for new car design and function are further limited. I think in the case of BMW the requirements for better fuel economy and changing design requirements have shown how depended the company was on the systems they previously used to achieve the results they once had.

The current generation of BMW's are not what we have been buying for decades, they are the first generation of what the future holds. The other car companies are not catching up, BMW has gone down and that's a big difference IMO. If you look at the current 3 it's not very good but the 2 is considerably better so this leave me with hope that the F30/32 are a hiccup in the BMW tradition of fine driving machines, the next 3 will likely regain what is missing.
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      04-06-2014, 11:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Well I think a decade is a bit too long to make judgment here and the evidence is upon us now. The F10 and the F30 have both deteriorated in quality; that quality being the driving experience.
You should wait long enough for BMW to:
A) refine & improve the current F30 and F10 cars.
and/or
B) develop a new generation of cars with better performance. If neither happens within the near future (10 yrs in my book) then I'd agree BMW is on a downward path.
Everyone acknowledges the current 3 and 5 series cars are not the best right now. They've barely been out for a few years. So you have to let some time pass for BMW to rebound. Like I said before, everyone has ups and downs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
My 800+ mile evaluation of the ATS proved to me it drives better than the F30. I can tell you that after 26 years of BMW ownership my next car will not be a BMW. That decision comes from BMW loosing its way and other manufacturers offering a better product for me, which for me the driving experience needs to come above all else. When you couple the expense of a BMW, along with inferior reliability (of some models), proliferation of the brand to the point where every soccer Mom drives an X-Series (), and a driving experience that is not better than the competition, there is no longer a benefit of ownership.
Ok, have fun with the ATS. Unless I was getting a M4 or M6, I probably wouldn't be buying a current generation BMW either. Just remember this is 1 generation of cars we are talking about here...BMW will put out newer cars within the next 7-9 yrs, they probably are already developing them. Be careful of judging BMW's future potential by referencing its current cars. These new cars could be horrible, they could be awesome, or they could mediocre, who knows?

Also, just about every car brand out there, including Audi and Mercedes, caters to the soccer mom or family crowd with utility or crossover vics...why? So they can make more money.
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      04-06-2014, 11:35 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 070 View Post
imho when the world economy improves, so will BMW.

They never did anything before for the sake of doing it. For example, the F3x 335's exhaust, where it's just a muffler turned sideways with 2 outlets, like a Pontiac G6 or a Dodge Neon. It's just a sign of the times.

Or, stamped steel control arms like a Honda Civic or Fit.

BMW knows better, but they have constraints too. A 328 would be 65k if they built them like they did in 2006-2010. A N54 exhaust system is a perfect example of when engineers had free rein. It's over 6k retail before installation, you can't do that in 2014, i.e. the muffler turned sideways for looks alone.
NO. Just all of this...no.
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      04-06-2014, 11:41 AM   #42
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My take:

To an extent "BMW has lost its way" is sort of true, when you look at it on the surface. They definitely are going mainstream with all the benefits that implies--big money on the bottom line.

But more to the point, BMW is doing what every other car manufacturer is doing over time--the cars of a particular model gets bigger, heavier, and more...."touring" like.

Then, when the original model has gotten big/expensive/heavy enough, they introduce a smaller model which pretty much does the job of the guy that just moved up in weight/price class.

For BMW's U.S. market, enter the 1- and 2-series. They are what the 3-series used to be.

So no, I don't think they've lost their way--not completely. They have a cunning plan to both be mainstream AND enthusiast. Just different car model lines.
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      04-06-2014, 12:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
My take:

To an extent "BMW has lost its way" is sort of true, when you look at it on the surface. They definitely are going mainstream with all the benefits that implies--big money on the bottom line.

But more to the point, BMW is doing what every other car manufacturer is doing over time--the cars of a particular model gets bigger, heavier, and more...."touring" like.

Then, when the original model has gotten big/expensive/heavy enough, they introduce a smaller model which pretty much does the job of the guy that just moved up in weight/price class.

For BMW's U.S. market, enter the 1- and 2-series. They are what the 3-series used to be.

So no, I don't think they've lost their way--not completely. They have a cunning plan to both be mainstream AND enthusiast. Just different car model lines.
what model line am i looking to have a plain inline six cylinders like a all 3 series E46/9X used to have? the answer is none and that's the reason why i chose to go the route of V8 engine. I don't think i'm going to buy another BMW F-model generation till an inline six or plain V8 comes back.
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      04-06-2014, 12:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tto///M3 View Post
what model line am i looking to have a plain inline six cylinders like a all 3 series E46/9X used to have? the answer is none and that's the reason why i chose to go the route of V8 engine. I don't think i'm going to buy another BMW F-model generation till an inline six or plain V8 comes back.
With the draconian pollution and mileage requirements those days are going to be numbered. And most people wont buy a V8 when gas is creeping up to $5 here, never mind Europe. the bottom line is the enthusiast doesnt pay the bills. BMW provides a platform for the enthusiast to spend a few dollars to get a lot more BHP should they choose. A 3 series can be bought with a 4 cyl and four doors for middle management types. And you can get a two door or vert screamer should you choose. Its not going down. Its staying viable in a global marketplace.
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