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02-13-2014, 10:35 PM | #45 | |
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Get hubcentric rings, or if you are running spacers get hubcentric high quality spacers. Everyone is right, this car is very prone to unbalances, and non-hubcentric wheels. I have BBS LM-R wheels... Drives nice and smooth I will say you are right, plenty of people have run cheap wheels on the M3 with no problem at all. Unfortunately you have a problem, and again, unfortunately, its likely the wheels. |
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02-13-2014, 10:49 PM | #46 | |
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Guess that would be too logical. |
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02-14-2014, 02:47 AM | #47 | ||||||||||||||||
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Let me address several of your questions and elaborately explain in detail, as many didn't seem to understand me the first time.
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I looked into AG and other "high quality" or "expensive" wheels if you wish. I would have to special order it from somewhere, pay a few hundred in shipping and duty to import into Canada, and then get someone to install them. It didn't seem worth it. First, because I wanted to be sure the setup I got would work properly. It was my impression that if I go to a wheel/tire place and ask for a package specifically made for my car, that it would be the safer route to go. I thought that people whose profession it is to do this might know more than me. They recommended the Riva rims first to me, but I said I want the VMR, because I've seen many members here use them, again, because I wanted to make sure it would be something that works. The reason I mention VMR is because it's the only other brand that we have here. If I went to the States, there would be a much larger selection that fit my car and look good. Note that when I mention "safer" or things like that, I mean that the setup will work with my car. I didn't mention that I was looking for the safest and most reliable wheels possible. I know that companies making replica wheels have two goals in mind: Making them as cheap as possible, and making them fit as many models as possibly by changing widths/offsets. Compared to OEM wheels whose priorities are durability from road hazards, potholes, salts, car washes, and proper strength to support a fully loaded vehicle. So if you are here to lecture me about how OEM wheels are better, or whatever, thank you for trying to help, but unfortunately its irrelevant. I didn't ask for help choosing which wheels to buy, I already have the wheels, and I said I wouldn't sell them. Giving me advice about something irrelevant is just a waste of time. That said, I could see the wheels I got where made with better quality machinery. It's a bit difficult to tell in the front because of the paint, but on the back you can definitely see it. That doesn't mean they are any stronger or more durable than aftermarket wheels from China, but it makes me more confident about choosing them even though they are cheaper. That also doesn't mean that they are not strong enough for whatever purpose I use them for. Recommending crappy 18" wheels to someone who said aesthetics is important and said he doesn't want 18" wheels in the first place is like going to a fast food joint, saying you hate hamburgers and want a hot dog. Then the guy working there goes, "you should get a hamburger instead, it's better for you". You'd be like, "I don't care if it's better for me, I specifically asked for a hot dog." Quote:
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Search for what exactly? I mentioned how many hours I spent looking into this, it is not enough? I haven't found a solution to this that I am satisfied with. What exactly do you mean with hubris, anyway? In America it tends to mean "self-confidence", whereas in British english it means "arrogance" or "egoism". Is that because I am not "accepting" the advice here, selling my wheels, losing money, and settling for crappy wheels that I don't like? I wouldn't be happy with my car, I don't even have the money or time to do that. I thought by spending some time on here, someone might have a creative solution. But the #1 reason I am not "taking" the advice is because it's unnecessary. The wheels are not the problem. Let's say you have a water leak in your home. The problem is that a "nut" (not sure what the proper english name for it is) is lose. But the plumber says, you should upgrade your pipes to all metal pipes because they are safer, more reliable and last longer. It will cost $5000. Who would be wiser, the guy paying 5K for something that's not causing the problem, or the one paying the plumber to tighten the nut and fix the leak (assuming you couldn't do it yourself)? No sure why I even bring up these examples, but it looks like either people are not reading my long posts, or I am not explaining things clearly enough. So hopefully these will help make it more clear. Quote:
The point of that was to illustrate that I am not "cheaping out". This is Canada, everything is more expensive here, our salaries are less, taxes higher, and cars are way more expensive. Quote:
Let's forget everything that I know for a second. Assume I'm just a simple consumer. Many of the things I know are because of this issue anyway, so let's pretend I don't know anything about wheels and tires. BMW showed me their Winter Package, and said if I didn't like the look, to get an aftermarket set. So I followed their advice. The entire reason why I got everything from one place, including the spacers was because it was their recommendation, and the responsibility of the shop if something didn't work. I consider big vibrations such that it's difficult to hold the wheel, a product that doesn't work as advertised. Yet, they wiped their hands and said, "it's not our problem, go to BMW". I go to BMW, they force me to pay money down the drain, and they say I need to get "hub centric rings" from the tire place. I go back and they said BMW is wrong, there are no rings available, that they don't know what to tell me except to look into a custom machined part. So I spent all this money, they can't refund/return it, and yet it doesn't work. I am not familiar how to deal with such a situation in this country, if what they are doing is lawful and I'm really screwed, or if there is something I can do. Yet, no advice on this has been given. Would you really tell a consumer, it's your fault for buying such a product, spend $1000 (in loss) to sell the wheels and spacers, and buy a completely new set for another $1000 that will hopefully fit your existing tires. Ok, right... spend another $2000. Quote:
I was close to buying a set from here for $1600 with black OEM ZCP wheels. They needed new tires soon, but still a good deal. Unfortunately someone snagged them just as I was talking with the seller. I waited for several weeks for something local to appear again, but nothing good came except OEM 19", which I just don't want on my car. I like the ZCP wheels, but I already have a black set, and don't really want the silver ones. So a replica set in gunmetal would be great. Yes, I decided to get a replica instead of OEM, <GASP>. The car is more for looks. If I want function, I have other cars that I can use. Regarding your overall point, don't think I disagree with you. I completely agree with you that OEM wheels are better quality and almost all replicas are inferior, and that price doesn't dictate quality. However, pointing out my wheels are the problem just because I have aftermarket wheels is not helpful. I thought by explaining in detail what I was going through, the problem with the BMW service department and the tire place (the real problem) that it would save time. Instead, I had to go back, get my OEM wheels put back on just to show that the wheels are not the problem. Bash my aftermarket wheels all you want, they're not BBS or Volk, but if you really want to help, tell me some things I could try to get my current setup working. I wasn't defending the quality of the wheels, I was defending the fact that they are not the problem when everyone was saying "they ARE the problem", "you are blind to the truth" and calling me arrogant for not believing them. I was surprised that people came to such convinced solutions so quickly without taking in all the facts. I don't have much hope in this forum helping me anymore. I'm interested in what people will start to blame now. I'm guessing the blame will still somehow come back to me, probably blaming me for not giving all the details right away, or for not trying that earlier. In advance, I'm sorry I didn't make my posts longer. I will try to make them as long as I can from now on (sarcasm of course). And sorry I didn't take out my summer tires in sub-7 degree weather to possibly damage them. Quote:
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Some advice about the word "try". It means to make an attempt. It's not valid in this case, I'm not "trying" to run 275 width tires, but I am running 275 wide tires. Also, I think instead of "large", "wide" is more appropriate in this case, as the overall size of the tire is not a big difference from the stock 265. If you think sizing down for snow tires is some kind of rule everyone must follow, then you have me laugh. Perhaps you meant to say, "usually you size down for winter tires"? And this is not a "usual" case. Plus they didn't have 245 and 265 anyway, the only tires were 255 and 275 that they had to import from the States. My only other option was Blizzaks and honestly I trust the Pirellis more since that is what we use in Germany on high end cars. Quote:
It's funny how strongly people believe in something, even when you wave evidence in front of their face. I never would've thought I'd see something like this on a car forum, but I guess people can be religious about anything. Quote:
About the expensive wheels, that's what I was asking, what people meant by cheap. Because if it was simply about the price, then OEM wheels aren't exactly more costly, especially if you get them used. And even if they are expensive, it doesn't mean they're good quality as you said. I don't mind testing these out, the shop said they sell them to BMWs all the time. If they get damaged, I have extra insurance for that anyway, mostly for the tires since they are more costly. Quote:
The strange thing is that I tried two completely different spacers, and they both had the same problem. One was a 20mm DRA-type of spacer with inner bolts (like at the rear), and the other was a Macht Schnell spacer bought from a user here. I could always ask if he had any problems on the highway with his spacer. One thing I did notice was that the spacers fit differently when I put them on top of each other. One spacer fit quite tight on top of the other, a little difficult to remove, while another fit quite easily; you could even rotate the spacers while they were together. Neither had much room to move around, but it's possible that one of them might have a tiny little gap that's not visible to the eye. I doubt something that small could produce such vibrations though. At 120km/h, the wheels do 20 revolutions per second. The steering ratio is 12.5, so a 1mm movement on the wheel would translate to 12.5mm movement in the steering wheel. So we are looking at about a 1.5mm movement on one or both wheels. Putting the spacers together didn't show this much leeway, although one was more tight than the other as I mentioned. The BMW technician said the spacers were mounted fine, no leeway on those, but he did notice it with the wheel. I looked at it with the OEM wheels and you could feel a tiny little bit of movement if you keep the steering completely still. A 1.5mm movement is not immediately obvious, and my guess the original shop didn't notice it with no one holding the steering completely fixed (you could turn the wheels a little). Quote:
Now I'm afraid to even mention aFe intakes, Active Autowerke pulleys and Akrapovic exhaust systems. Careful! They're not OEM!!! Arghhh!!! Quote:
I'm very interested in your spacer comment. When you say "fit perfectly" what do you mean? Is it the inner hub side, or wheel side that you have seen problems with? And why would they not fit properly? Is it something that's spacer-specific? Ie. each spacer is manufactured with a slightly different size and it can be off? Or some companies that make spacers are off by a bit and every spacer from that manufacturer will not fit perfectly? Is there any way around this? I tried two different types of spacers from two different companies and both do the same. Should I try a 3rd time? It's interesting to know that many who run aftermarket have vibrations. It's not something that came across as a common issue when I was searching these forums, but it's difficult to read every thread ever posted when there are literally thousands. I couldn't imagine anyone driving on the track like this, or even on the road as it's difficult to hold a shaking wheel. I'm afraid if I let go, the car will go crazy and hit another car or crash. Quote:
What do you mean by "stickies"? Like wheel balance weights that are stickers? Yes, they did. Not sure what BMW used, I'll have to check. Quote:
I would do all the cleaning you suggested, except that I don't have the tools. I looked into buying a torque wrench and all the stuff I need, but right now it's overkill. The shop where I got the wheels/spacers tried to fix the problem, so I could ask them to do what you mentioned. In my opinion it is their problem to deal with, but the manager said they are out of ideas, and when he mentioned machining a custom part, I just lost it. They did do the star pattern for tightening and everything. Maybe I'll get BMW to remove the spacers and install them, since when they took of the wheels and put them back on, the vibrations seem a bit less than when the other shop did it. Thanks for your suggestions, dmppdx! I appreciate your helpful and kind reply. Quote:
There has to be a way to get the front spacers to work. It seems the rear are fine. Maybe try a 3rd set of spacers? That ring from eBay sounds finicky, but could be an option. Or some kind of metal tape around the spacer hub extender, making it tight with the wheel?
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02-14-2014, 02:48 AM | #48 | |
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I also tried using the wheels without the spacers to check if the spacers were the issue. And as I was writing while you were posting, I'm sorry I didn't take out my summer wheels and drive them in sub-7 degree temperatures so that I could damage them. Yes, very logical indeed. The whole idea was to prove that the wheels are not the problem here, not the spacers. People were blaming the wheels, so I had to get those out of the way. There are still some other things to try to confirm some things, but we have all the data to make the conclusion. Nice try at trying to find a flaw in my logic. Too bad while doing it, you made a flaw in yours.
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02-14-2014, 03:22 AM | #49 | |||
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High quality spacers? Macht Schnell and H&R are not high quality? Which ones are high quality? Quote:
But the wheels again, seriously? Oh yeah, I forgot I was a pathological liar. I'd take a picture.. oh wait, it can be photoshopped.. or a video.. oh wait, it can be videoshopped, or whatever. I know I'll keep getting blamed no matter what. I've dealt with such people on the internet before. It doesn't matter what you do or say, once that person says they are right, they don't have the balls to admit they are wrong. And if the wheels somehow do end up being the problem, I admit in advance that I was wrong. I don't care about having to admit that because I believe in progress, and when we are arguing over matter because of pride or ego, it just slows us down as a society. Just say "my bad", or "see, I was right", and move on. Now I will humour you and explain why it makes sense that it's not the wheels. The wheels fit fine without any play on the hub. The BMW technician verified this. He also RoadForce balanced them. That means they put it on a load where they can turn the wheel faster than 50km/h. I'm not sure what speed he took it up to, but it was above that for sure. So there is no vibration to problems in the uniformity of the wheel/tire. When you put the wheel on the spacer, you can feel a little tiny bit of looseness that doesn't exist when it's on the hub directly. The rear wheels don't exhibit this. The rear spacer is totally different. Even though originally they were both DRA-type H&R spacers, the rear one was a slightly different colour and look. I tried a used Macht Schnell set also, that's currently on now, that gives slightly less vibrations, but it's still there. The outer hub "extensions" of the spacers are not exactly the same, one is a little bit smaller than the other that you can tell by putting a 3rd spacer on top of each of them. One fight very tight and snug, you can't even rotate it, while the other fits easily and you can rotate it. AFAIR, there was no visible play between the spacer, but I didn't measure it with anything. If you put the OEM wheel on top of the spacer, you also can feel some movement. Obviously if you put the OEM wheel on the hub you wouldn't feel any movement. I haven't tried this, so I can't confirm it, but I didn't have any problem with the OEM wheels, so I doubt it. There are more things to explain, but is this helping at all to believe it's not the wheels that are the problem? Maybe in 99% of cases like these it's the wheels. But to me it looks like it's the spacers. Yes, maybe it's crazy that two different spacers could cause the same issue, but as another poster said, they usually don't fit perfectly. So maybe I just need to try a 3rd set of spacers.
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02-14-2014, 03:38 AM | #50 | |
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And the reason I won't admit that they are the problem because there is no PROOF that they are. In fact, everything suggests that they are NOT the problem. Now I don't know when our society switched to being driven by faith instead of fact, but I still believe that if you want to state a universal truth, you need to back it up as fact, or else it's entirely your opinion. This is not the case anymore? I am totally humoured by all the posters who go along with the crowd and try to prove me wrong (which they can't, they don't have the car). And when I prove them wrong, they start calling me a liar because they can't swallow that they are the ones who are wrong. Oh the irony!
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02-14-2014, 03:43 AM | #51 | |
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I never said I have quality wheels, in fact I said you can trash the wheels all you want, they're not BBS or Volk. But they're not the problem here. I wasn't defending the quality of the wheels, but that they are no the problem here. I was stressing the specific issue I am facing in hopes to steer this conversation to something useful. Yet, it seems no one cares to actually consider all the facts and help someone out. No, no one is obligated to help, but it would be nice if people would spend time helping each other instead of bashing each other - the world would be a better place.
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02-14-2014, 04:35 AM | #53 | |
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I did not want to call you a moron in my first post. However, you are a moron.
I too live in Canada - Calgary to be exact, I would bet that buying local over here would be even more expensive than when you are 'Pinz'. The tires being BMW approved have nothing to do with the rims safety, it's like saying that the BMW approved tires are good enough for a Bugatti Veyron's rims...see how stupid that sounds? Also, there are TWO 18" options, not just one like you keep mentioning (in the process making yourself sound like a dumbass)...1) is the OEM winter package option aka style 270 - this is an 18x8 Front & Rear rim size and a 235/40/18 Front & Rear tire size. 2) is OEM standard option wheels aka style 219 - this is 18x8.5 Front and 18x9.5 Rear and a 255/40/18 Front & Rear tire size. 1) can be had at under $2,000 USED like I mentioned and I bought 2) at $1,100. Just a couple of points too; you mention initially that VMR's take 6 weeks to get to Canada, that's your vendors bs or your personal bs as I got mine from a vendor on here at a substantial discount $1,000~ INCLUDING shipping + taxes + fees in JUST 8 DAYS - even with tires (295/30/19 and 265/30/19 - which are WAY more expensive than your winter sizes) I paid less than $2,700 installed AT MY HOUSE, NOT HAVING TO DRIVE ANYWHERE OR WAIT AROUND AIMLESSLY! Also, now you say that you never said your wheels were 'quality wheels' yet whenever somebody was to hate on them you would defend them to the end of the earth. Give me PROOF that they are NOT the problem and this will be a different conversation...for now I am done with this thread and I just wanted to leave you a little essay so you know how it feels for the rest of us when you go on endlessly, you moron. -- STYLE 219 with 255/40/18 Front & Rear for $1,100! Quote:
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02-14-2014, 07:29 AM | #54 |
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OP - based on your very thorough and meaningful posts it's now clear to me that the wheels are not the problem. At this point I think the best option is to sell the M3 and go back to a Honda Civic. Please also pay more than MSRP for the Civic because that will guarantee that if you have mechanical problems it will not be the car's fault.
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02-14-2014, 09:57 AM | #55 |
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I just skipped through the huge wall of text. OP did you try the OEM wheels without the spacers? Some people have had issues with vibration when using aftermarket spacers. If you still have a vibration with OEM wheels, and you are sure they aren't out of balance, then you have a different issue.
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02-14-2014, 10:46 AM | #56 | |
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02-14-2014, 05:44 PM | #57 | |
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02-20-2014, 03:51 PM | #58 | ||
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One thing I've noticed is the vibration seems to be mild, and then increases after more drives until it's pretty bad. But after BMW RoadForce balanced and reinstalled the replicas, the vibrations were WAYYY less and have been staying like that. You almost can't see the steering wheel vibrate anymore, you just feel this tiny little vibration when you hold the wheel. I could probably live with that since at any other speed than 120 km/h it seems not noticeable anymore. I wonder if it's just a fitment issue, maybe the tire shop didn't do the bolts in the right order or right torque or something. I'll get BMW to try reinstalling the spacers, too, making sure to clean everything. If it was due to the balancing, I would be very surprised since the problem doesn't happen all the time. And I found balancing issues are constant. The tire shop didn't suggest the adapter (hub ring), it was BMW. The tech also told me I should get a 30 sidewall tire for the rear, not 35, which is wrong. Maybe he thought it was a 20" wheel? His comments on the sheet are also funny.. like HUGE AFTERMARKET WHEELS, HUGE SPACERS IN FRONT, VERY HUGE SPACERS IN REAR, etc. Quote:
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02-20-2014, 05:08 PM | #59 | |
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And no, Vancouver is not cheaper than Calgary. Go to craiglist and look at the prices for almost any good. I just did it, including tires and such, and Calagary is quite a bit cheaper. I didn't do a 20 sample with 98% confidence interval, so I cannot state that it's true because of craiglist, but rather it's from personal experience, many friends from Calagary that moved here say how much more expensive everything is here, especially real estate and taxes. How much tax do you pay on tires? Here it's 12%. The reason for mentioning craiglist is to provide you a way to check it yourself, so you won't have to take my word for it. Let's keep this point out of the discussion, however, since it's not relevant to the problem. I just wanted to help you to be more informed, not to make you look wrong or anything. About BMW approved tires, did I say anything about rim safety? No, I mentioned that because they have to be BMW approved for the warranty to hold. I wanted to buy something in case the tire gets punctured or the rim gets bent that I wouldn't have to bear the cost for it. Less things to worry about. I said this to point out that the BMW OEM package doesn't have the warranty advantage it would otherwise. About the options, I'm not going to say anything that makes you look dumb, but all I will say is that I was only given ONE option. I wish I had two options like you did. I asked them if they had any other packages, and unfortunately they didn't. I'd actually be very happy with Option 2 if I could get that. Your car looks great with those wheels. Now of course you don't believe me, and I can't believe I'm spending time proving to someone who is arrogant just to clear my name of your accusations. Look at the PDF here, under 3 Series/M3 they list one option at the bottom. This is all the dealer could offer me. There's no picture in the PDF, so I'm sending you the picture that the BMW sales person sent me to show how they look like. It's personal preference, but I just didn't want those wheels on my car. You have to respect a person's opinion. BMW Winter Packages.pdf Why do you assume people love to BS? Have you ever considered that different things could happen to different people in the same situations? I doubt vendors would randomly BS, especially when in this case it would mean more money from them. For me, I don't see the reason to make stuff up just to exaggerate something or make a problem seem bigger than it is. What is the point in that? The vendor said that VMRs are not bad, but it's the stock with them that is the problem. They might have some stock one week, and next week none. Ever consider the issue of stock? At another location, they guy said it would take 2 weeks for the VMRs. So I said fine. Then they call VMR to order the wheels and apparently they don't have stock for the size/offsets that I need. They told me it'd take like 4-6 weeks if I wanted to wait for them. Now I wish I would've waited for them so that I wouldn't have to deal with spacers and stuff like that. In the future I might swap them out. Which VMRs did you get? I'm guessing 19x10 +25 for the rear? And front 19x9.5 +22 or +33? Or something less aggressive? I thought about 19x9.5, but I'm guessing it'd have to be +33 as +22 would probably rub, right? I might order them for $1000, and then sell the current wheels and spacers for around $700-800 for everything if I can. That is if I can't make this spacer issue go away completely. About the tires that you claim are so much more expensive than mine. How much did you pay? Is this for summer or winter tires? For 265/30R19 I see cheap ones for about $100, better at $200 and so on up to Michellin PSS for $400. The way you made it sound is that these tire sizes are super expensive. Unless you're talking about winters, in which case you probably don't have much of a choice. It'd be dreadful to have sizes like that for winter. Mine cost over $400 just because they're 19" with a 35 sidewall. Can't imagine the price for a 30 sidewall winter tires... About your "essay" claiming that you are speaking for everyone about how they feel, I didn't see anywhere in your post about how you are feeling, I could only imply from the way you were writing. It's mostly just accusations and trying to prove me wrong, which doesn't mention how you are feeling. Are you feeling tired? Sad? Upset? Angry? And why? I don't need to give you PROOF. I just asked for help with an issue, mentioning limitations such that I cannot afford to buy a new set of wheels right now. Instead of bashing, you could've politely said something like, "I still think the wheels are the problem, but if you really want to keep them you can try this or this". Or if you really don't see a way out, "Dude, I think the wheels are the issue and I don't know of a way around it, your best bet would be to sell them." Like some people here did. But there's no need to call people names and go ballistic just because it triggers some emotion or nerve. In case you missed it, the issue is still there with the OEM wheels, so likely it's a spacer issue. There are still some more things I'm going to try to verify what exactly about the spacers is causing it, but lately the signs have been pointing towards installation. The vibrations would start out mild and then increase every time the wheels were reinstalled. But when BMW did the reinstallation, the vibrations were mild and stayed like that. Almost bearable... almost. So maybe I'll get them to reinstall the spacers, clean everything, and see how that goes.
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02-20-2014, 05:16 PM | #60 |
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I had the same issue that drove me crazy until I finally figured it out.
1. Measure hub opening on wheel 2. Is there a difference between this and your your hub size? 3. If so go to this website http://www.justforwheels.com/hub-centric-rings.jsp and buy hub centric rings that make up the difference and problem solved. I had a set of custom rims that were supposed to be hub centric but weren't and caused me to balance my front wheels over and over. |
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02-20-2014, 05:42 PM | #61 | |
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Spacers are a mixed bag... they say they are OEM fit and the same hub size etc. but the actual fitment varies between brands and even different on the hubs of different cars! I've had vibration from spacers on cars before - it is not uncommon. Sometimes you can fix it by fitting them a certain way or certain torque techniques like I mentioned earlier - torquing the wheel in the air without the tire touching the ground. Other times you just got a bad set of spacers that don't work with your car/wheel set up. Remove the spacers and try it, the vibration should go away. If you still want to use spacers, try a different brand. As for the rear being fine... you will not feel rear vibration through the steering wheel or the car. The entire rear subframe is isolated by rubber bushings and layers of sound deadening.
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02-20-2014, 07:57 PM | #62 | ||
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Great to know about the rear. I was wondering why only the front was affected. Now, the important question is whether vibrations like this would be bad for the car? If I fix the front, for example, but leave the rear, it'll still put extra wear on the bushings, right? So if I find a solution, I should apply the same solution to the rear as well, right? Thanks so much for your help guys!!
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high speed stability, spacers, steering wheel vibration, vibration, wheels |
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