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      04-06-2009, 10:11 AM   #23
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go to honda?
now I know your just trolling
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      04-06-2009, 10:14 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
  • Porsche got lucky with market timing. The Cayenne came in a boom, the X5M / X6M is coming is the worst time in the auto industry
  • Porsche didn't reinvest their profits from the Cayenne in their cars. Is the 997 that much better than the 996 or is the 998 going to be that much better than the 997? Are they going to continue to develop flat 6's?

When they killed the Z4M, the CSLs and even the CS, to make trucks, this was their corporate strategy in action. Cutting sedans, coupes and GTs in favor of trucks.

Given the current economy and the long road to recovery, BMW is going to HAVE to cut even more projects. What if they cut more from engine development? What if they don't do a new engine for every generation of M car? Let's just merge with AMG and get it over with....
Porsche absolutely used the Cayenne to make other sports cars, and improve the breed across the line.

Without the Cayenne there would have been no Carrera GT, the 911 GT (GT3, GT2, etc) would not have been developed. The interiors of the 997 and 987 range would not have been so dramatically improved, and Porsche wouldn’t have had the money to purchase VW to help insure their survival.

While I don’t like to see M go force fed, or M badges on trucks, in this economic time it is essential that they do something like this. The development costs on these trucks was comparatively low (no unique engines or chassis, just a body kit), and the profit margin will be high, that is a good way to make money.
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      04-06-2009, 11:06 AM   #25
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High strung, high revving engines might be nostalgic, but there is a reason they have been replaced. Its called progress. Something must be right about the new engines, because they are vastly more powerful, and quite often, more efficient.
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      04-06-2009, 11:15 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask View Post
Porsche absolutely used the Cayenne to make other sports cars, and improve the breed across the line.

Without the Cayenne there would have been no Carrera GT, the 911 GT (GT3, GT2, etc) would not have been developed. The interiors of the 997 and 987 range would not have been so dramatically improved, and Porsche wouldn’t have had the money to purchase VW to help insure their survival.

While I don’t like to see M go force fed, or M badges on trucks, in this economic time it is essential that they do something like this. The development costs on these trucks was comparatively low (no unique engines or chassis, just a body kit), and the profit margin will be high, that is a good way to make money.

Unfortunately the CGT was a model in how NOT to make money. They took an aborted Le Mans car and made it into a roadcar. I am not sure if I share your opinion that Porsche would not have continued to make GT3s and GT2s. They have profitable customer racing programs (the best in the world). While it is hard to see where Porsche spent their Cayenne profits, it is likely that they used it buying up their stake in VAG. Good financially but the money has not tricked back down to product development.

BMW, prior to the economic meltdown, was already one of the most profitable car companies already....yet they are seeking more profit at the expense of what made them successful in the first place, R&D.

Even if BMW were successful with the X5M / X6M, they are not going reinvest their profits anytime soon.

Unfortunately for BMW, they brought out the wrong trucks at the wrong time. Consumption is worse than the big American SUVs and they are being launched when 30%+ of the market has disappered, with even a higher percentage in the SUV market.

They are going to cut back even more R&D.

Hey if they can afford to piss off loyal customers like me to chase soccer moms....power to them but this is an extremely risky bet for BMW, particularly in these economic times.
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      04-06-2009, 11:26 AM   #27
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Unfortunately the CGT was a model in how NOT to make money. They took an aborted Le Mans car and made it into a roadcar.
I was told by someone who should know that the CGT was very profitable which is unlike most hyper cars.

The majority who make these cars seldom sell all examples, Porsche on the other hand sold all and could have easily made more because of the demand. Now I doubt it would be possible for any manufacturer to sell a decent amount so I don't expect to see many so-called hyper cars for the next few years.

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While it is hard to see where Porsche spent their Cayenne profits, it is likely that they used it buying up their stake in VAG. Good financially but the money has not tricked back down to product development.
PDK.........enough said.
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      04-06-2009, 11:49 AM   #28
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PDK.........enough said.

The bulk of tranny development is done by contractors like Getrag. Unlike engines, trannies are largely farmed out.

Try again.
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      04-06-2009, 12:23 PM   #29
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The Carrera GT was never intended to be profitable. A car company the size of Porsche or BMW cannot build 1500 of anything and make money on it, let alone a super exotic car.

The Cayenne hasn't hurt Porsche, the M model X6 and X5 will not hurt BMW.
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      04-06-2009, 12:32 PM   #30
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i just hope that bmw doesnt end up like the big 3. Back when everyone was heading toward fuel efficient vehicles, the big 3 was pumping out trucks. and look at them now, their trucks are just sitting.

will bmw trucks be sitting? i guess to be seen....
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      04-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #31
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I think it's yet to be seen if the X5/X6 M's hurt bmw, it cant be good for the M badge history

I know I skipped on an E9x M because they have gotten so far away from what they once were
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      04-06-2009, 12:57 PM   #32
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Who cares about FI, look at powerband...

A well tuned turbo motor with an appropriately sized turbo(ie:evo) can have a very high redline and make power all the way up top.

I'm very afraid the upcoming M models will be completely inferior to their audi rivals. Audi has been getting better... look at the new S4, TT-RS, R8, etc. Not to mentioned the rumored next gen boxtser that would humiliate the Z4.

BMW is turning into Mercedes, and Audi is becoming what BMW was.
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      04-06-2009, 02:13 PM   #33
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Hey genious, 5300 pounds, high center of gravity, sucky redline. Enuff said.

I don't care if they sell millions. They are reallocating resources away from sedans, coupes and GTs.

The reason I am not happy is because BMW is arrogant. I have been a customer since the E36 M3 and they are taking my business for granted. They are on this stupid path thinking that their marketing is going to make my eyes glaze over in stupidity.

They are ignoring their loyal customer base, this is the bet they are making by scrimping on development of the cars that we love to chase stupid heavy trucks that don't perform well.

I am pissed at their corporate culture more than the X5M / X6M. On these products, they are going to handle like crap because of their weight. period.
lol...
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      04-06-2009, 03:09 PM   #34
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      04-06-2009, 03:15 PM   #35
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It is sad to see //M die to auto enthusiasts. At least I still have my motorcycles. I can always get the lightweight unfettered visceral thrill there.
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      04-06-2009, 04:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Who cares about FI, look at powerband...

A well tuned turbo motor with an appropriately sized turbo(ie:evo) can have a very high redline and make power all the way up top.

I'm very afraid the upcoming M models will be completely inferior to their audi rivals. Audi has been getting better... look at the new S4, TT-RS, R8, etc. Not to mentioned the rumored next gen boxtser that would humiliate the Z4.

BMW is turning into Mercedes, and Audi is becoming what BMW was.
Audi isnt anything like BMW, sure their product has improved but the way they approach performance is different from BMW (AWD, engine), same goes with Merc. Everyone has different ways of producing performance cars.
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      04-06-2009, 04:28 PM   #37
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i dont know about you guys but to me thats just fucking awesome.
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      04-06-2009, 05:03 PM   #38
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oh god BMW is putting turbos in M cars!

omfg M badge on a truck!

"BMW HERITAGE IS GONE"




you guys are such drama queens, holy shit.

It is a car company, THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY. IT IS A BUSINESS.

Everyone is complaining how they cut the CSL, well if more people bought it then maybe it wouldnt be cut.

How many of you would have bought the new m3 csl if it was made? I am sorry but for around 100g(most likely the cost if they made the new CSL), there are MUCH better cars to buy then a modified 3 series



BMW heritage is still there, M is about top of technology and perfomance...translating to turbo engines with huge amounts of power and better gas economy.


Everyone who wants to go cry, go buy an e30 m3, now thats "BMW M Heritage"



flame suit on
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      04-06-2009, 09:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Sam12345 View Post
oh god BMW is putting turbos in M cars!

omfg M badge on a truck!

"BMW HERITAGE IS GONE"




you guys are such drama queens, holy shit.

It is a car company, THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY. IT IS A BUSINESS.

Everyone is complaining how they cut the CSL, well if more people bought it then maybe it wouldnt be cut.

How many of you would have bought the new m3 csl if it was made? I am sorry but for around 100g(most likely the cost if they made the new CSL), there are MUCH better cars to buy then a modified 3 series



BMW heritage is still there, M is about top of technology and perfomance...translating to turbo engines with huge amounts of power and better gas economy.


Everyone who wants to go cry, go buy an e30 m3, now thats "BMW M Heritage"



flame suit on


BMW is the new GM. Enjoy the mediocrity.

Try to process some of the arguments above.
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      04-06-2009, 09:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam12345 View Post
oh god BMW is putting turbos in M cars!

omfg M badge on a truck!

"BMW HERITAGE IS GONE"




you guys are such drama queens, holy shit.

It is a car company, THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY. IT IS A BUSINESS.

Everyone is complaining how they cut the CSL, well if more people bought it then maybe it wouldnt be cut.

How many of you would have bought the new m3 csl if it was made? I am sorry but for around 100g(most likely the cost if they made the new CSL), there are MUCH better cars to buy then a modified 3 series



BMW heritage is still there, M is about top of technology and perfomance...translating to turbo engines with huge amounts of power and better gas economy.


Everyone who wants to go cry, go buy an e30 m3, now thats "BMW M Heritage"



flame suit on
No need for flames. IMHO, you were spot on.
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      04-06-2009, 09:17 PM   #41
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No hope for you my little lemming. BMW is the new GM. Enjoy the mediocrity.

Try to process some of the arguments above.
I think the R8 for 115K is much better than an M3 CSL at the same price. I think his argument was quite logical and why must you say lemming? We dont just go along because we are idiots. We think that inorder to remain compeditive with Audi and MB BMW has to make "sacrifices" like FI and ///M SUVs.


Dont call dissenters stupid because they have a different opinion than you do.
And GM is not a bad car company. They are in the shitty financial situation because they got bullied by the unions during the 80s and 90s.

The fact of the matter is that GM makes some really good cars. (The CTS, Malibu, Cobalt (performance wise), ZR1)

So stop clinging to a past that is no longer a viable option in the current age. Learn to evolve you old dinosaur, adapt or die. Thats the way the world works.
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      04-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #42
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hey T Bone did you bitch like this back when the first Bangle cars hit the road?
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      04-06-2009, 09:54 PM   #43
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i don't see what the problem is...Mercedes has the AMG version of the G and ML.

BMW is just trying to stay competitive in that market.
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      04-06-2009, 10:13 PM   #44
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hey T Bone did you bitch like this back when the first Bangle cars hit the road?

Nope, I bought a Bangle car. I love change, for the better.
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