[ScotyH]

"The new M3 smokes the old E46 M in every respect...." this coming from a friend of mine who's had one for 5 years.

20K premium justifiable? That's totally subjective. Some think it's totally out to lunch. Some like me think it's reasonable for such a level of performance & comfort.

There is NO disputing that the 335 is an incredible value given it's comfort level and it's ease for modding.

What else can one get for a daily driver that performs as well as an M3 and is as comfortable? Without modding that is.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Handling is also better, but IMO, the gap there isn't as big as it was with the E46 either.

Well, that's just simple physics - we can expect every performance car to start to plateau about now because it's much more difficult and expensive to shave half-seconds off cars doing 0-60 in under 5secs than it is for slower cars. Things are about to get interesting.

My own rule for performance cars is not to upgrade unless the new car is a second faster 0-60 than my current car. Going from my 1983 944 to Z4 2.5i did it, and going from the 2.5i to Z4M more than accomplished that goal. Once my M has it's gear swapthough, it'll be doing 0-60 in ~4.5sec; I don't see myself going to a 3.5sec car I can drive daily for the price of a Z4M, much less shaving over 2secs like I just did.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by Herms

interesting. I think the "feeling" of fast is different than being fast. The power delivery is probably a lot smoother than in the 335 and you don't get that sudden burst w/o a turbo. also, from everything I've read, it seems you really have to get high in the rev range to take full advantage of the M3, so maybe it's not as fun in normal driving conditions.

I love the M3 and have wanted one since I started to drive. I've been seriously considering trading in the 335 for one, but based on what I've read so far, I'm not sure I will do it because I'm afraid I'll have a similar experience and regret spending all the extra cash (to be sure, the M3 is better, but this is purely a matter of cost benefit given the allegedly marginal gains in driving experience (wish I could test drive one, but no demos around me and dealers have all told me no)).

It seems like the car isn't really much more fun if you're driving to and from work, and really only shines compared to a modded 335 if you drive on twisty roads for plan to track the car. I don't plan to do either, and even though I appreciate the M3, I don't think the money is justified based solely on how I plan to use the car.

Interestingly enough, I thought this all through on my way to work this am and started thinking that the C63 might be better for me based on the aforementioned reasons. For just zipping around town, power and acceleration are more fun (to me at least), and it seems like power/acceleration fun factor would be better in the Merc.

I had these thoughts so many times, about so many cars.

The classic adage:

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow."

[EmPower]

The 335 and M3 are different .... so different infact that they are the Yin and Yang of BMW AG... a little like the Gt3 and turbo for the 911. Both offer different ways to go fast. For all of us that are just using a car as a commuter, the 335 should more than suffice (and for a few of us out there who suffer from the increasing bank balance syndrome...Dinan and Procede enhancements perform their jobs spectacularly). Yes, I do agree with the debate of cost over value and it MAY be difficult to justify that extra 20K sticker on the M3... but when you really think about it, the e9X M3 is a totally different breed of animal when compared to the e46 M3. The E46 is like the IS-Fs and C63s of 2008... a blatent tool just meant to be driven fast. The M3 on the other hand is a supercomputer on wheels where you can dabble and fiddle with the OBC to get the desired result. That brings me to my other argument.... I beleive that if I was to get an M3, I would get one fully loaded as opposed to a C63, IS-F or even my lowly 335 that is sparsely loaded on options.

[herbz]

The M division doesn't get to design the chassis, unfortunately. The chassis comes straight off a normal 3 series. Always has for the M's. Lets face it guys the M3 is no longer the screamer that it once was. Too heavy.

[Corsis]

This thread just about sums up how i feel about the M3. Typically when the M3 comes out, its the clear winner against its highest 3 series family. When the E46 M3 came out, every 330 owner i knew was in awe, and dreamt of trading up for one at some point.

Now with the current 335/135 and the M3 coming out. It seems that its split 50/50 in terms of wanting to switch up to the M3. The fact that there is even a debate makes it clear in my mind that the ///M division missed the boat on this one.

Its a shame too. I tried so hard to love this car but after two test drives now, all i come away thinking is how great the engine sounds. Comparing it to my 98 M3, it feels like driving a Lexus. And i know as newer M's come out they get more refined, but its a real shame thats the case.

I am waiting to see if they can get a CSL version out that fixes is all this.

As for Bimmerloyalist, your review of the car is spot on. It does feel great inside and is quite exceptional at what it does in terms of versatility, I guess i just am old fashioned with my M cars in that i dont need or want them to be versatile, when i sit in an M3, i want to know im in an M3. Sit in an E30 or E36 and right away you know the car is meant to be driven hard.

The new M3 just doesn't invoke that feeling for me.

Oh yea, ///M manual transmissions are always incredibly bad from my experience. Vague rubbery feel and long throws are actually an ///M staple! However the old clutches are nice and firm.

[mtsound]

I think bimmer loyalist has the right point, 335 is a wonderful car and you can tune, if you already have it, enjoy it. if money is no object the m3 is a great choice. i have a 335xi as a daily driver and have a e90 m3 on order as my fun car. 997 and 996 turbo are good choices but i refuse to buy a car with no local dealer in town, learned the hard way with my mini.

[5soko]

if everyone saw a thread i made a few weeks back, i pulled on a e92 M3, all i had was a SSTT with K&N drop in with 93 octane. i was alone and i have a AT tranny.

but i think straight line speed is where the comparison ends, to some people this may be the world, to others just a sent of the pie

[ToddPhilly]

I think the thing to take away from all this is that BMW is trying to provide a set of product offerings that match various consumer demands. I do think the target market of the M brand is changing. Today, I think the typical M customer is getting closer to a typical MB AMG customer than in generations prior (though there is still a difference!). Anyone who thinks M is building cars for track junkies and that the M3 is an out-of-the-box track car is just wrong. That is simply not its intent. It's meant for the consumer who wants the prestige associated with the M brand as well as its phenominal handling, power, and quality. The gap is much smaller now between top non-M 3-series and the M3, but its still there. To some the M badge and characteristics will be worth it...to others, not so much. For me, I'm really hoping BMW pulls through with tii versions of the 1 and 3. That model would meet my more specific demands than today's M car.

[328i]

I think the better value is the e90 m3. You get the practicality of the 4 door with with the sexy coupe front end. With all the packages it's about 62,000. Just wait till you can get a discount and you can get it for under 60,000 with some negotiation. Definitely a better bargain than the e46 when they were out imo. Plus M cars hold their value extremely well from what I have seen. Getting an e46 will still cost you around $25,000 to get a nice one.

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by ToddPhilly

I think the thing to take away from all this is that BMW is trying to provide a set of product offerings that match various consumer demands. I do think the target market of the M brand is changing. Today, I think the typical M customer is getting closer to a typical MB AMG customer than in generations prior (though there is still a difference!). Anyone who thinks M is building cars for track junkies and that the M3 is an out-of-the-box track car is just wrong. That is simply not its intent. It's meant for the consumer who wants the prestige associated with the M brand as well as its phenominal handling, power, and quality. The gap is much smaller now between top non-M 3-series and the M3, but its still there. To some the M badge and characteristics will be worth it...to others, not so much. For me, I'm really hoping BMW pulls through with tii versions of the 1 and 3. That model would meet my more specific demands than today's M car.

I agree. Most of the M3's i see are being driven by trophy wives. BMW really needs to create a CSL division to scare away everyone wanting heated seats and cup warmers.

[Spazdoc]

Originally Posted by ToddPhilly

Anyone who thinks M is building cars for track junkies and that the M3 is an out-of-the-box track car is just wrong. That is simply not its intent. It's meant for the consumer who wants the prestige associated with the M brand as well as its phenominal handling, power, and quality.

Out of curiosity, was the e30 M3 ready fro the track straight-up? I do not know much of the original M3, since I never liked the e30 series. It was not until the 1990s that the styling of the 3 series began to appeal to me.

[328i]

I also think the reason the m3 may not seem so great is because the 335i is such a great success.

[ToddPhilly]

Originally Posted by Spazdoc

Out of curiosity, was the e30 M3 ready fro the track straight-up? I do not know much of the original M3, since I never liked the e30 series. It was not until the 1990s that the styling of the 3 series began to appeal to me.

The original intent of the M marque was to produce a street legal race car with minimal frills. I never owned or driven an e30, but I have driven a stock e36 M3 on track. It was pretty damn good on the track for stock, but still not great. I do think it was more track-ready than my past e46 M3. Now, I haven't driven the e92, but my guess is that it will be yet one more generation removed from the original purpose. It's not really a bad thing per se. BMW is catering to the masses. Can you blame them? I just hope a part of them holds true to their heritage and provides tii or CSL based models for the enthusiasts.

[wrickem]

I keep on having those deja vu feelings back to the days of 330ci vs M3 on
E46fanatics when I read these posts.

There's no need to try to justify what a great car the 335 is, because it really is, but i just can't drool over it like I do over a new M3. Even if the M3 is slow as Hell compared to a 335 or overpriced, it still has the drool factor for me.

[delman27]

The new M3 needs to lose about 500lbs and should be stripped of some of its non-performance amenities. I had an E36 M3 and an E46 M3 and the older car was much more fun to drive. On a twisty road I was faster in my E36 despite the better acceleration of my 2003. The car simply communicated better than the E46 which felt "numbed" by electronics. The old car made me a better driver and was a more involving experience.

I have not driven a new M3 but from what I have it read the driving experience has continued to move into slightly softer territory. The 335 already has this territory well covered which is the root cause of the problem.

Do not forget the original intent of the M cars. A lightweight screamer with exotic go-fast bits would add to its street cred. It would again become something to be feared. IMO, BMW needs to focus on what made the earlier models so legendary.

[zacktown]

I am really surprised to hear you guys talking about the ride being soft. I would consider the softest setting quite bumpy, but not harsh, however, once you crank it up it is really harsh.

I have had more than one person riding with me say that it feels like the car has no suspension.

I can understand about the torque. I remember reading in road and track last year something about the car not feeling as fast as it is. I have about 800 miles on mine and can honestly say that the car just keeps pulling. You are going 100 mph in no time and if you are in m dynamic mode, your car will jump over just about every bump.

I am still pretty light on it since I am not really a crazy driver, but I have done a handful of outright acceleration blasts (always leaving traction control on). The engine feels a lot like my 2003 m5, just faster.

I initially went into the dealer to get an m5 and bought this on impulse. I really like it, but will trade up to an m5 as soon as I get the chance (any takers?).

The only minor complaint that I have about the m3 is the constant attention it gets. I like to be a little more anonymous (like the m5). I am in L.A. so m5s are quite common and go almost unnoticed.

[choopy]

[QUOTE=M3This;2370831]yea your missing the feeling of boost. I have often heard people say once you drive a turbo car you will always drive a turbo car and I can say thats 100% true for me

well said, Previous car TT S4, Porsche Cayenne Turbo current, 335XI current, brother also had TT 93'Mazda rx-7...tough for me to go to a V8, or anything non turbo after enjoying the privilege of driving turbocharged cars for some time now

[watrob]

Everyone here says the 335 beats the M3, the problem is a standard 335 does not beat a standard M3.

A tuned or modified 335 does but how about going up against a tuned & modified M3. Spend $25k on a M3 and you got a 520 - 535 HP rocket that you can drive round all day. Don't think your 335's motor would last long when your pushing that boost up.

And who would want to buy a secondhand 335 that's had the s**t kicked out of it. Also, having to bring it back to standard everytime you take it for service so you don't loose your warranty.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by M3This

yea your missing the feeling of boost. I have often heard people say once you drive a turbo car you will always drive a turbo car and I can say thats 100% true for me.

seems that we will be sticking with BMW for a while... I was reading that their range is getting 'turbo'ed.

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Originally Posted by watrob

Everyone here says the 335 beats the M3, the problem is a standard 335 does not beat a standard M3.

A tuned or modified 335 does but how about going up against a tuned & modified M3. Spend $25k on a M3 and you got a 520 - 535 HP rocket that you can drive round all day. Don't think your 335's motor would last long when your pushing that boost up.

And who would want to buy a secondhand 335 that's had the s**t kicked out of it. Also, having to bring it back to standard everytime you take it for service so you don't loose your warranty.

What makes you think the M3 motor would last with 520-535HP? Also look at what you just wrote..."Spend $25k more on a M3". The benefit of already having a FI engine is it'll cost $8k-$10k to make that power and have a hell of a lot more torque. The engine was engineered to handle boost. Will there be something that fails? We'll see.

[MJC///M3]

Originally Posted by jaaz

I test drove one last weekend and agree with your comments on the manual tranny. I hated the long gear shift throws and light clutch. Also, it seemed like there was no room for error in first gear--either you shifted perfectly or the car would buck like a bronco. It put me off a bit, have to admit.

On the other hand, the handling/suspension, sound of the engine, steering wheel, seats and exterior were all amazing.

In sum, I think it comes down to simple economics. I actually have an opportunity to trade in my 335i lease and purchase an IB M3 coupe at MSRP. Thing is, MSRP on an M3 with similar options that I have on my 335i is 69k.

Besides the fact that I also love my 335i, I'm finding it hard to justify paying $20k more for the M3. Of course there's a difference between a 335i and an M3, but is that difference worth $20k? That's the real question.

I really wish BMW would have kept the price of a loaded M3 near $60k. That was the sweet spot, in my opinion, and they missed it big time.

I had a similar issue on my test drive. For some reason I could not get first gear down at all. lol..i actually stalled it twice..kind of embarrassing. But sometimes it would be smooth as hell and other times I would feel like I was on a bull.

weird.