[Adam Way]

ALCON,

Question for you. I have RB Turbos installed on my vehicle as of last month. I am losing about 1 quart of oil per 350 miles I drive. I am getting a significant amount of oil in bank two. Throwing code for air/fuel ratio to rich. (P7104 i beleive from memory). I probably am getting 25% more oil in bank two versus bank 1. The vehicle is burning oil through the exhaust (obviously). I am getting both an internal leak (big) and a small external leak on each turbo. I am totally fine burning a little oil (maybe 1 quart per month), but the current amount is obviously excessive. The blue smoke, smell, etc. are a litttle embarrassing when I come to a stop and vehicles next to me roll up their windows...lol.

With that being said, I am curious if others are having oil burning issues with ASW, Helix, RB Turbos or similar and to what degree. I am trying to establish a "normal" baseline...

At this point it appears the turbos are within "spec", however my vehicle seems to have a smidgen more oil pressure than normal and thus is creating blow by. This is probably due to the combination of mods I have.

I talked to Rob Beck (amazing guy) and he feels it might be from the oil catch can set-up as they restrict the PCV system and can cause problems. In my mind, I have trouble linking oil pressure with this, but I am certainly no expert. I ran it by Andrew at AR Design (another amazing guy) and his advice is to test it out by removing it as it is easy to do and then we can go from there.

Long story short, I have a track day on the 3rd and am hoping to get this problem fully resolved before my last track day of the year. So I am coming to you guys as this forum seems to have some very tech savvy people with lots of modification experience. Any insight is greatly and sincerely appreciate. Thank you in advance.

Adam Way


Vehicle is a 2009 335 XI with AT, with full bolt ons. I dont' think an accessory exists that I don't have. Mods are as follows. HPF intercooler. V5 Procede. DCI. Radiator. Trans cooler. AR design oil coolers with thermastats (stage 2). AR design oil catch can. AR downpipes (catless). AR custom exhaust (catless). Tial BOV. Meth. Full suspension mods, won't list as this shouldn't pertain to problem. etc. etc. There are probably more, but this is what comes to mind.

[zerep1]

oil catch cans have been know to affect oil pressure in negative ways if i where you i would remove it

[Adam Way]

Zerep1,

Do you by chance have a thorough enough understanding as to what about the oil catch can set up makes the oil pressure increase? I can't seem to wrap my brain around it. Thanks for the reply.

Adam

[Syndicategt]

Here, it's a long but good read:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=518306

It was proven that AR, and even BSH, had adequate diameter lines for sufficient pressure. I would still remove the OCC if you are running the RB's at high boost. Are you sure this is not an install problem? Did you replace the OEM oil lines with new ones? This is the first case I have heard with new turbos leaking this much oil. There could be other problems related to this such as a leaking oil house gasket.

[cstmx_ryder]

You can read up on the PCV thread created by dzenno.....He has RB turbo upgrades as well. That thread will pertain to you more versus the stock turbo guys.

GL!

Originally Posted by Adam Way

Zerep1,

Do you by chance have a thorough enough understanding as to what about the oil catch can set up makes the oil pressure increase? I can't seem to wrap my brain around it. Thanks for the reply.

Adam

[Joshboody]

How do you know you're getting 25% more oil through bank 2?

Never heard of throwing a code for being too rich due to oil... but makes sense. If it's coming from the turbine, then this means you are running lean in the cylinder and NOT good.

My understanding of OCC causing oil in bank 2 would be due to the restriction under boost, and the manifold expelling more oil (off boost) mainly through bank 2 because of the proximity to the check valve.

Since it's only 1 bank the oil would NOT be accumulating in the intake piping.

I'm sure others will have a clearer explanation.

EDIT: yes, reading the super long but informative thread would be a good start

[SkySoldier]

Uhh turbos shouldn't be leaking any oil through them. You have a bad turbo(s). You may want to do a compression and leak down test just to rule out a burnt ring though.

[Adam Way]

Wow. Great link with lots of great information. That was quite a bit of information. That is certainly the most likely scenario that this is my problem.

At this point, we can rule out bad install, bad oil lines, or bad oil house gasket.

I am an "aggressive" driver with the open roads we have here, so that should be taken into consideration that I am not the average driver that drives slow.

I will have the shop remove the OCC and see if that helps. I run more boost on the highway than I do at the track. Given that I live in Colorado with the air being thin, it is my belief that boost here is in fact higher than at sea level. Since the turbo install and noticing the oil leak, I am not running meth right now till I figure out the issue.

Thanks everyone, I'll keep everyone posted.

Has anyone ever installed a device to limit/control oil pressure going into turbos? One would think that this would be a way to keep an OCC installed without having too much pressure push oil through the piston type design gasket within the turbo.

[Clap135]

It sounds like one orange both of your turbos is shot. An occ will not make u burn through that much oil.

[Adam Way]

The 25% more estimate of oil through bank 2 versus one is a visual guess. The contimation for lack of better terminology on bank 2 side of exhaust is visually way more dirty. Upon visual inspection the turbo itself has a very significant amount of additional oil.

Not sure about OBD II codes, but I wasn't surprised that this caused a code of some sort. To be fair I have been getting this code on track days ever since the OCC install. I can't seem to shake it.

On other heavily modified vehicles I own it is not uncommon to get a little oil loss from burning or minor blow by from time to time based on conditions out of turbo. Operative word here is little. So I don't know that my goal is to remove *all* oil loss. That may be an unrealistic expectation. I definitely could be wrong though as comparing my BMW to other vehicles isn't an apples to apples comparison.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Clap135

It sounds like one orange both of your turbos is shot. An occ will not make u burn through that much oil.

This is one of the only subjects I think you are a little naive on.

Could be 2 causes by OCC
1. drainage
2. more fumes evacuated through the manifold due to restriction under boost.
There's been multiple cases where removing the OCC reduced or cured oil consumption.

[tibra1]

The more I read about all these issues w upgraded turbos the more convinced I am to stay with stock turbos..tuned w FBOs I am well over 400hp n tq n I run an OCC no issues..so why would I need to mess around w upgraded turbos??..thats my 2cents

[dzenno]

You're definitely not the only one experiencing oil burning/smell/smoke after putting on RB turbos but at the same time there are those that haven't "reported" any issues with their units (doesn't mean they're not having the same issues too). It is still not entirely clear what is causing additional oil consumption as that's also happening on my car even with regular off boost driving and it can obviously be many things. I am personally running the stock PCV system at the moment, no OCC (used to have a BSH and before that the RR OCC).

The ASR turbos also smoked initially on Shiv's car but they provided a restrictor to the oil feed lines and they stopped smoking. ASR turbos are ball bearing so that was easier to do/try as they don't need nearly as much oil as journal bearing RB turbos. This is one thing that is being explored as an option with RB journal based ones BUT its risky to restrict flow without knowing oil pressure/flow details and at the moment is a far shot.

What really sucks is there is no oil pressure data for the N54 in any manual/documentation I know of. Asked at a few dealers and they don't have it either. The car itself has 2 oil pressure sensors/switches which trigger a CEL due to either too low of a pressure or too high of a pressure. Given these two oil pressure switches are nothing but oil pressure sensors, given they're in working order, should indicate when there are oil pressure issues on this car, of which I have never gotten any codes for.

In light of researching some of this information I've ordered the N54 oil distribution block/gauge kit from LeatherZ along with their gauge mount and a few other gauges to mount on my car. On a turbo car especially one with journal bearing turbos oil pressure really is something that should be monitored if possible. Hopefully I'll have some time this week to install.

In the end, smoke on my car really isn't that bad but does worry me in the long run. I already had one of the RB turbos go on me when they were initially installed and to this day the exact cause of failure isn't exactly known.

[cocoturkey]

I DID experienced oil leak after RB turbos upgraded. The turbos ran great in the first 600 miles... and then I started to lose about 1 qtr of oil every 300 miles. The vehicle was burning oil through the exhaust due to oil leak in the rear turbo. I reported to Rob, and he replaced the core for me, but I had to pay for International shipping. I got the new turbos 2 months ago and everything is working properly now. It's been 1000 miles since i put the replacement on, and I have no problem now.


p.s. I never had OC installed on my car.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by cocoturkey

I DID experienced oil leak after RB turbos upgraded. The turbos ran great in the first 600 miles... and then I started to lose about 1 qtr of oil every 300 miles. The vehicle was burning oil through the exhaust due to oil leak in the rear turbo. I reported to Rob, and he replaced the core for me, but I had to pay for International shipping. I got the new turbos 2 months ago and everything is working properly now. It's been 1000 miles since i put the replacement on, and I have no problem now.


p.s. I never had OC installed on my car.

Where was the oil leak on the rear turbo?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

This is one of the only subjects I think you are a little naive on.

Could be 2 causes by OCC
1. drainage
2. more fumes evacuated through the manifold due to restriction under boost.
There's been multiple cases where removing the OCC reduced or cured oil consumption.

Assuming an occ is responisble for 1 quart of oil every 350 miles is naive. Especially when there are thousands running various cat cans and not burning an oil. Smoking coming out your tail pipes while idling is def a sign of blown seals. If you chose to disagree so be it I don't care either way.

Dzenno what let go on your first RB turbos? The seal went? Any significant shaft play or grinding of the housing? Scorned or bent fins?

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Assuming an occ is responisble for 1 quart of oil every 350 miles is naive. Especially when there are thousands running various cat cans and not burning an oil. Smoking coming out your tail pipes while idling is def a sign of blown seals. If you chose to disagree so be it I don't care either way.

+1

[dzenno]

When my front turbo went oil consumption was terrible and there was tons of blue smoke especially noticeable after coming to a stop with the cloud going by the windows...at the moment with the current set my oil consumption is down to 1 liter every 2000km of very aggressive driving...Since adding the last quart I've driven the car very easy and off boost to see how related oil consumption is to driving style...so far in the 1000km driven very lightly the oil level indicator has gone down 1 line (think that's 1/5th of a liter)...if it turns out that I have to add another 1L of oil after just 5,000km then this is definitely more than before the RBs as I used to go about 8,000km before adding an additional 1L of oil in between my 10,000km (6k miles) oil changes...I never drove the car too lightly before RBs either...

but we'll see, there's definitely a reason behind it, i never knew about cocoturkey's oil leaking issue where it was shipped/fixed by Rob

when the front turbo went, there was a lot of in/out play on the turbine wheel...when Rob received them he indicated that the seal went which made the thrust bearing go and there was a bit of scoring on the housing around the turbine...rear turbo was still fine

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Assuming an occ is responisble for 1 quart of oil every 350 miles is naive. Especially when there are thousands running various cat cans and not burning an oil. Smoking coming out your tail pipes while idling is def a sign of blown seals. If you chose to disagree so be it I don't care either way.

Dzenno what let go on your first RB turbos? The seal went? Any significant shaft play or grinding of the housing? Scorned or bent fins?

I'm not saying it's solely OCC, but there is an effect especially with upped turbos. Something to look at.

[Adam Way]

tibra1, the difference between my vehicle with stock turbos and RB turbos is truly impressive. A mod that I think was well worth it. It makes the drivability of the car soooooo much better. Not just when flooring it, but all around. Ultimately, I think you should modify your car as you see fit, but I encourage you to not give up on aftermarket turbos across the board. They are still a relatively new mod for our platform and a few "kinks" to work out are to be expected. I certainly don't mind being on the forefront of this.

Dzenno. Good stuff. It looks from your mods in your sig that we have basically the same mods. The fact that the removal of you OCC helping the problem is encouraging. I certainly would be happy with the end result being that I am burning oil mostly at wide open throttle. If I could remove the oil burning when at low speed (<25 MPH), or at least make it not noticeable so that I could drive with windows down, that would be an end result that I am fine with. If it's not too much to ask can you post in this thread when you have oil pressure readings?

As I think about it, having some oil blow by going into exhaust isn't the end of the world and long term I can't think of any negative repercussions (other than it being a tad annoying to fill up. Anyone else see fault in my logic here? Anything I am naive to?

Has anyone deviated from running the stock oil to something else and had better results?

Ultimately I think having oil pressure data will be very helpful in diagnosis. If I were to guess, I am guessing the RB turbos (and probably the stock turbos) are receiving close to maximum oil pressure to begin with and a slight variance of increased oil pressure makes for oil leak. Apparently the delta isn’t significant enough to throw a code, but significant enough to experience increased oil consumption. Very interesting.

[dzenno]

I'll definitely share the results, no point otherwise as I need input from everyone always..

I'm running Mobil1 0W-40 Synthetic, LL-01, European formula...I switched to it before RBs I think but for the vast majority of km on the car I ran the Syntec 5W-30 synthetic recommended by dealers here..

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Adam Way

tibra1, the difference between my vehicle with stock turbos and RB turbos is truly impressive. A mod that I think was well worth it. It makes the drivability of the car soooooo much better. Not just when flooring it, but all around. Ultimately, I think you should modify your car as you see fit, but I encourage you to not give up on aftermarket turbos across the board. They are still a relatively new mod for our platform and a few "kinks" to work out are to be expected. I certainly don't mind being on the forefront of this.

Honestly not trying to incite anything here and I agree that upgraded turbos are the next generation mod for the n54…with that said..I hope everyone here appreciates how very serious oil consumption/loss is, especially w these engines.

I personally need to have some measure of reliability with my car..and chancing oil loss is absolutely out of the question for me..with that said..I really hope the research continues into the upgraded turbos issues. Im sure given some time they will be resolved..as for now..I am very satisified w/ the power I have with a solid tune, FBOs and an OCC that continues to catch oil