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      07-10-2014, 07:15 PM   #1
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335i Limits, cornering

Hey,
I know this will come down to the tyres, the road conditions and I should leave it to a track but I just want to ask because I want to get some feedback from you guys with experience.

I've had my 335i a couple of months and it's my first RWD car. I'm really cautious in the corners. Far too reserved tbh, but I'm wondering how well it will corner.

If I leave the DSC and DTC all on to the max, how much can you push a 335i round corners. I know it doesn't have a LSD but if you are on a long, constant sweeping bend and you just keep feeding more and more power gently, will it just understeer to the outside of the corner once it reaches the limits of grip? My only worry is it oversteering and sending me into the curb. Is that likely?

I know I need to book some time on a track, but what the hell, I'll ask anyway. My friend has a Sirocco and is a long time go-karter. He can really push that thing. I don't dare to push it like he does at this stage.
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      07-11-2014, 01:16 AM   #2
gangzoom
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Cannot really answer you question because I've never tracked my 335, but it has far more grip than I have driver skill.....You have to be driving like a total d**k to push the car to its limit on public roads, so unless your a driving god and want to act like a d**k I wouldn't even try.

The only time I've experienced true understeer in the 335 was at near fully lock doing 30mph in an empty car park....But than if you stab the throttle with any form of aggression it all becomes very interesting, and easy to control
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      07-11-2014, 03:01 AM   #3
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With dtc on it's almost impossible to loose rear end . I drive mine with half way off as it allows to play abit , but again it won't let you go to far . No lsd means it's easier to control and less chance to crash if you loose it .
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      07-11-2014, 03:46 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by M4rius View Post
With dtc on it's almost impossible to loose rear end . I drive mine with half way off as it allows to play abit , but again it won't let you go to far . No lsd means it's easier to control and less chance to crash if you loose it .
Interesting!
I thought an LSD would mean a more controlled drift if the back end ever steps out where as with one wheel spinning and then regaining traction, it can be more unpredictable. That would be with TC off I guess.

I'm 90% on getting myself a LSD. My diff is welded. Usually my daily drive is highly restricted. 8 miles to work on A roads where you usually get stuck behind a driver not even pushing 30 mph.
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      07-11-2014, 03:52 AM   #5
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I'm just about due a rear tyre change as well. Getting down to the indicator marks. Got the new set at home. They just need fitting. Now's the time to play with the DTC and destroy the old tyres. I've got

Hankook Ventus S-1 Evo2 K-117 255/30R19 91 Y ZR, XL.

Already running a set of Evo1s, which were put on in about 2011 by the previous owner who only did a few thousand miles a year.
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      07-11-2014, 04:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWSAWS View Post
Hey,
I know this will come down to the tyres, the road conditions and I should leave it to a track but I just want to ask because I want to get some feedback from you guys with experience.

I've had my 335i a couple of months and it's my first RWD car. I'm really cautious in the corners. Far too reserved tbh, but I'm wondering how well it will corner.

If I leave the DSC and DTC all on to the max, how much can you push a 335i round corners. I know it doesn't have a LSD but if you are on a long, constant sweeping bend and you just keep feeding more and more power gently, will it just understeer to the outside of the corner once it reaches the limits of grip? My only worry is it oversteering and sending me into the curb. Is that likely?

I know I need to book some time on a track, but what the hell, I'll ask anyway. My friend has a Sirocco and is a long time go-karter. He can really push that thing. I don't dare to push it like he does at this stage.
If you haven't changed anything suspension-wise (e.g. ARB), the car is meant to understeer when you exceed the limit. BMW has configured this on purpose because only very few drivers know how to correct severe oversteer.

If you go towards stiffer ARBs, install an LSD and remap the car, oversteer and/or drifting is no problem when deactivating the nanny controls.

When the tires start squealing, you'll be close to the limits. Normally the nose should start pushing towards the outside of the corner, which you can rectify with gently reducing throttle input. I would however advise to do this rather on a track or dedicated handling circuit where you have more space for driver's errors.

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      07-11-2014, 05:53 AM   #7
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I have momentarily lost the rear end once, doing around 50 in third around a fairly long corner in slight damp. I was a bit too eager on the pedal as the corner straightened out and the rear twitched out. Instincts kicked in and thankfully I didn't end up in the Armco or sat facing the wrong way around in the middle of the road. That said, what feels like a huge twitch when you are in the seat driving could probably be an inch of movement on the rear.

The car had the grip though from the front end point of view, it was my driver error for putting power on too early. It wasn't that hard to recover, but the adrenaline did pump for a good few minutes after.

IMO the damp is the worst condition to drive the car in grip wise. It feels like you are driving on that slimy moss-like film you can get on driveways. The tyres (run flat at least) simply do not grip and actually perform better when there is some water to move off the surface.
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      07-11-2014, 06:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
If you haven't changed anything suspension-wise (e.g. ARB), the car is meant to understeer when you exceed the limit. BMW has configured this on purpose because only very few drivers know how to correct severe oversteer.

If you go towards stiffer ARBs, install an LSD and remap the car, oversteer and/or drifting is no problem when deactivating the nanny controls.

When the tires start squealing, you'll be close to the limits. Normally the nose should start pushing towards the outside of the corner, which you can rectify with gently reducing throttle input. I would however advise to do this rather on a track or dedicated handling circuit where you have more space for driver's errors.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Thanks Alpina,

I'd love to get on a track or even a skidpan to feel the limits of the car.
I'm looking for places now.

I have a JB4 ready to fit. I'll probably get a LSD later in the year if I can afford it. My car has the standard brace across the engine bay. It's an M Sport Highline so I guess it's pretty well set up as stock.
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      07-11-2014, 07:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
If you haven't changed anything suspension-wise (e.g. ARB), the car is meant to understeer when you exceed the limit. BMW has configured this on purpose because only very few drivers know how to correct severe oversteer.

If you go towards stiffer ARBs, install an LSD and remap the car, oversteer and/or drifting is no problem when deactivating the nanny controls.

When the tires start squealing, you'll be close to the limits. Normally the nose should start pushing towards the outside of the corner, which you can rectify with gently reducing throttle input. I would however advise to do this rather on a track or dedicated handling circuit where you have more space for driver's errors.

Alpina_B3_Lux

plus one...


The nanny aids are very sensitive and will correct any oversteer.... however, you can't just rely on the elctronics....no matter how good the car is .....GTR or not....if you push it over its limits ...you gona crash...end of!

I assume that with a proper LSD, the car will be easier to control for a decent driver.
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      07-11-2014, 09:53 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zltm089 View Post
plus one...


The nanny aids are very sensitive and will correct any oversteer.... however, you can't just rely on the elctronics....no matter how good the car is .....GTR or not....if you push it over its limits ...you gona crash...end of!

I assume that with a proper LSD, the car will be easier to control for a decent driver.
Understood, but if you are going round a long constant corner quickly and you gradually feed a little more power, you're just going to slowly slide out to the outside if you try for too much speed? Thats my understanding. I'm still a bit nervous to try it.
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      07-11-2014, 11:30 AM   #11
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For me , as i remeber ( stock car with runflat ) A roads around 80mph and you start feeling the loosely rear end.
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      07-11-2014, 04:58 PM   #12
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with mine on michelin pilot super sports, i have my DTC all the way off i hate it, and with the tyres being soo good i can plant it halfway round a roundabout or mid corner and not have to worry about losing the back end, it will come out if you want it to but very controllable when it does, best place is a track as its a safer environment and you wont hit some woman dropping kids off at school etc your all there for the same thing.

just have confidence in it, took me about 4 months and nice sunny day i thought sod it and went for it hard on the back roads and realised then actually this car will grip when pushed, even got the tyres to melt ha!
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      07-13-2014, 03:20 AM   #13
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Always found they are set up to under steer. I guess it's safer.

Obviously you can make them oversteer but it has to be intentional and unless you hit a slippery bit of road it is very unlikely your going to face the other way! Especially with all the vehicles safety electrics turned on.
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      07-13-2014, 03:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zltm089 View Post
plus one...


The nanny aids are very sensitive and will correct any oversteer.... however, you can't just rely on the elctronics....no matter how good the car is .....GTR or not....if you push it over its limits ...you gona crash...end of!

I assume that with a proper LSD, the car will be easier to control for a decent driver.
LSDs don't make it easier to control, just gives the driver more control (obviously you need to know how to!) think of it like it opens up a new level of fun but with much higher risk.
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      07-13-2014, 04:19 AM   #15
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With respect.....

What a load of bollocks and bunkum

Drifting a standard 335i on a high traction piece of track requires skill in both steering and throttle control. The problem with oversteer is that it needs loads of confidence because the BIG problem comes with RWD when you chicken out and suddenly back off. Why would you have confidence issues? Because the standard 335i doesn't handle like an M3 with its M-Diff LSD, which makes a gentle transition into oversteer. The 335i's transition into oversteer is far more sudden. Because of this, expert drivers in a 335i will provoke oversteer so they know exactly when the transition is coming.

For public roads, the 335i is set up to be a fast, safe car with electronics precisely designed to keep you away from any sudden, very difficult-to-catch chassis transitions.

In low grip situations its another ball game altogether. Here a 335i is downright snappy and you would never want to find its limits accidentally, ('scuse the pun). With electronic safety measures switched off, when pushed over the limit the rear can spin up instantaneously and snap into a spin in milli-seconds that even the best drivers would struggle to catch.

Trying to find the limits of a car like the 335i, indeed any car on public roads is asking for trouble. The car has lots of instantaneous power and mountains of torque and lacks the sophisticated suspension and diff ala M car, designed specifically to aid on-the-limit driving.

By definition, if you have to ask about finding a car's limits, you have far too little experience to go looking for them on public roads.

If you are interested in learning to drive a car at the limit, the best way to start is on a closed circuit that has plenty of space for indiscretions, in a car with a lot less power and with an instructor to guide you. That way you arrive at the scene of the accident going a lot slower and with the opportunity to learn what went wrong and why.

What you'll also probably learn is that some cars are fun to drive at the limit and others aren't.....super fast saloons designed to carry 4 or 5 adults in quiet, well padded luxury generally falling into the first category.
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      07-13-2014, 05:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
What a load of bollocks and bunkum

Drifting a standard 335i on a high traction piece of track requires skill in both steering and throttle control. The problem with oversteer is that it needs loads of confidence because the BIG problem comes with RWD when you chicken out and suddenly back off. Why would you have confidence issues? Because the standard 335i doesn't handle like an M3 with its M-Diff LSD, which makes a gentle transition into oversteer. The 335i's transition into oversteer is far more sudden. Because of this, expert drivers in a 335i will provoke oversteer so they know exactly when the transition is coming.

For public roads, the 335i is set up to be a fast, safe car with electronics precisely designed to keep you away from any sudden, very difficult-to-catch chassis transitions.

In low grip situations its another ball game altogether. Here a 335i is downright snappy and you would never want to find its limits accidentally, ('scuse the pun). With electronic safety measures switched off, when pushed over the limit the rear can spin up instantaneously and snap into a spin in milli-seconds that even the best drivers would struggle to catch.

Trying to find the limits of a car like the 335i, indeed any car on public roads is asking for trouble. The car has lots of instantaneous power and mountains of torque and lacks the sophisticated suspension and diff ala M car, designed specifically to aid on-the-limit driving.

By definition, if you have to ask about finding a car's limits, you have far too little experience to go looking for them on public roads.

If you are interested in learning to drive a car at the limit, the best way to start is on a closed circuit that has plenty of space for indiscretions, in a car with a lot less power and with an instructor to guide you. That way you arrive at the scene of the accident going a lot slower and with the opportunity to learn what went wrong and why.

What you'll also probably learn is that some cars are fun to drive at the limit and others aren't.....super fast saloons designed to carry 4 or 5 adults in quiet, well padded luxury generally falling into the first category.
Agreed the 335 can be snappy in low grip conditions but it terms of risk an open diff usually leaves one wheel not spinning, so if you are not such an experienced driver you might find going around a slippery corner with a LSD a little like going around it with your hand brake on! I've the experience to enjoy it but I'll never forget my first drive in a 350z (I have had many years, much more powerful cars and track days since then)
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      07-13-2014, 06:47 AM   #17
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I have a wide sweeping 90 degree bend near me on a country road that has no bushes, so I can see what's coming the other side.
My experience in both the 335i (JB4) and M3 are as follows:

335i - Traction half off.
I found that trying to drift around I would need to be going quite fast. Eventually when I started to drift I was going so fast I bottled it and nearly ended up in a ditch. I braked and the back end snapped around leaving me pretty shaken up.

M3 - M Dynamic mode.
Car started to drift at a much lower speed and was very progressive. I felt more confident at the lower speed and with the torque being linear there were no sudden surprises. After completing my first ever successful drift I did some whooping for a bit. What a great feeling.

What SteveC said ^^ is bang on.
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      07-13-2014, 07:47 AM   #18
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SteveC is spot on.
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      07-13-2014, 07:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by 335ier View Post
LSDs don't make it easier to control, just gives the driver more control (obviously you need to know how to!) think of it like it opens up a new level of fun but with much higher risk.
Hence why I said "for a decent driver".... as you need to know how to drive a car with a proper LSD to get the full benefits out of the LSD. Hope this makes sense.
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      07-13-2014, 08:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
What a load of bollocks and bunkum

Drifting a standard 335i on a high traction piece of track requires skill in both steering and throttle control. The problem with oversteer is that it needs loads of confidence because the BIG problem comes with RWD when you chicken out and suddenly back off. Why would you have confidence issues? Because the standard 335i doesn't handle like an M3 with its M-Diff LSD, which makes a gentle transition into oversteer. The 335i's transition into oversteer is far more sudden. Because of this, expert drivers in a 335i will provoke oversteer so they know exactly when the transition is coming.

For public roads, the 335i is set up to be a fast, safe car with electronics precisely designed to keep you away from any sudden, very difficult-to-catch chassis transitions.

In low grip situations its another ball game altogether. Here a 335i is downright snappy and you would never want to find its limits accidentally, ('scuse the pun). With electronic safety measures switched off, when pushed over the limit the rear can spin up instantaneously and snap into a spin in milli-seconds that even the best drivers would struggle to catch.

Trying to find the limits of a car like the 335i, indeed any car on public roads is asking for trouble. The car has lots of instantaneous power and mountains of torque and lacks the sophisticated suspension and diff ala M car, designed specifically to aid on-the-limit driving.

By definition, if you have to ask about finding a car's limits, you have far too little experience to go looking for them on public roads.

If you are interested in learning to drive a car at the limit, the best way to start is on a closed circuit that has plenty of space for indiscretions, in a car with a lot less power and with an instructor to guide you. That way you arrive at the scene of the accident going a lot slower and with the opportunity to learn what went wrong and why.

What you'll also probably learn is that some cars are fun to drive at the limit and others aren't.....super fast saloons designed to carry 4 or 5 adults in quiet, well padded luxury generally falling into the first category.
Thanks I appreciate this, its helped me learn a lot more
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      07-14-2014, 11:22 AM   #21
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Thanks

As I say, I'll be trying this on closed circuits, not public roads but I wanted to know if the electronics full on will limit the car to understeer in most situations.

I actually read some comments on another forum that was interesting, regarding practice on skidpans. How basically a car with electronic stability equipment reacts better if the driver doesn't react to the spin because it bases it's correction on the angle at which the driver points the wheel. The best thing to do with electronics is not to react and the car will try to get you to where you showed it you wanted to go. To get the best from a skidpan session the electronics need to be off or you need to be in a car without them.
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      07-14-2014, 12:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zltm089 View Post
Hence why I said "for a decent driver".... as you need to know how to drive a car with a proper LSD to get the full benefits out of the LSD. Hope this makes sense.
Of course!

All my comments were based on the assumption that AWSAWS isn't so confident & for somebody that does not know how to handle a LSD equipped car could find themselves in a lot of trouble compared to a car with a open diff due to most of the time only one wheel would break loose.
All your comparisons between an open diff & a LSD, I through the eyes of an experienced driver totally agree, but I'm not sure unconfident drivers would think the characteristics of a LSD in low grip conditions would be described as control (by comparison) because an open diff would light one tyre up but not break the rear loose.
That's all I meant.

Last edited by 335ier; 07-14-2014 at 01:05 PM..
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