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      10-28-2014, 09:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
there is alot of rear wheel slip on hard acceleration, lsd will/should eliminate that. ppl always say you dont need lsd if you dont track your car....thats not true

The question should be, its the lsd worth the price tag for a dealer install, I'll say not worth it...If it was offer as an option then i would get it
Wheels slip when the tires are at the limit of adhesion, and in a straight line the mechanical LSD isn't going to offer you an advantage that the traction control and eLSD can't offer.

If you want the tires to slip less, save the $3000 that you'll spend on the LSD and buy a set of even stickier tires, or upgrade to X drive if rocket launches are your thing.
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      10-28-2014, 09:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan84 View Post
I've only driven an M235i automatic, but I must say it was fun as hell to drive!



I'm not really directing this at you, Solarphil, it's more a general vent... but why must people perpetuate this "manual transmission = driving, automatic transmission != driving" attitude? I just don't understand it. Is it a reactionary way of defending one's manhood? My 5'2 100lb soaking wet girlfriend mindlessly drives her 5MT Jetta 1.8T Sport while jamming out to whatever club music she fancies. She doesn't feel the urge to chest bump me when she gets out of the car, as if to celebrate being able to row her own gears.

I've driven manuals as long as I've had a drivers license. My first car was a 91 Talon TSi AWD 5MT and every car since then, excluding my Tundra pickup, has been a manual. Despite that fact [that I've only ever owned MT cars] I'm probably getting a M235i with the automatic. Why? Because IMO, it's just as fun to drive, it's no more expensive than an MT, and it's faster [see Sports Car]. A car like this can be as engaging as you want it to be. Not having a third pedal doesn't take away your ability to DRIVE it.
Dan,

I don't think it's intended as a "macho" thing. Whether your girlfriend or this balding and skinny 60 y/o, there is a difference from "macho" to seeking a higher level of engagement. This is may be more related to a need to be busy/moving, perhaps a bit of ADD thrown in, all of which finds sitting behind the wheel with just two pedals insufficiently stimulating or interesting. A stick is more to do for the right hand and left leg, and more of a challenge to do well (which is its own additional reward), and is just more fun. Maybe we were the kids who always wanted to go around on the roller coaster one more time, seeking stimulation. It doesn't really matter how "sporty" the car is...this is about what we perceive as fun....being more stimulated and doing more stuff....not "macho".
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      10-28-2014, 09:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdemon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
there is alot of rear wheel slip on hard acceleration, lsd will/should eliminate that. ppl always say you dont need lsd if you dont track your car....thats not true

The question should be, its the lsd worth the price tag for a dealer install, I'll say not worth it...If it was offer as an option then i would get it
Wheels slip when the tires are at the limit of adhesion, and in a straight line the mechanical LSD isn't going to offer you an advantage that the traction control and eLSD can't offer.

If you want the tires to slip less, save the $3000 that you'll spend on the LSD and buy a set of even stickier tires, or upgrade to X drive if rocket launches are your thing.
So with a elsd with one wheel spinning and the other appling brakes will have better traction then both wheels spinning?
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      10-28-2014, 01:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
So with a elsd with one wheel spinning and the other appling brakes will have better traction then both wheels spinning?
Both wheels are spinning regardless, and you don't want them to be spinning, you want them to find the limit of grip as quickly as possible. In a real world application the computer is going to do a just fine of a job controlling it with the brakes in a straight line. The eLSD doesn't "Stop" one wheel with the brakes while the other one gets power, it applies friction which is the same thing the mechanical differential is doing inside.

Yes a mechanical LSD will help, but the real world value of it "on the street" is minimal.

My point still stands. If your concern is acceleration and grip you will spend less money to buy an X-drive car and add even stickier tires than you would to buy a mechanical LSD.
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      10-28-2014, 02:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdemon View Post
Both wheels are spinning regardless, and you don't want them to be spinning, you want them to find the limit of grip as quickly as possible. In a real world application the computer is going to do a just fine of a job controlling it with the brakes in a straight line. The eLSD doesn't "Stop" one wheel with the brakes while the other one gets power, it applies friction which is the same thing the mechanical differential is doing inside.

Yes a mechanical LSD will help, but the real world value of it "on the street" is minimal.

My point still stands. If your concern is acceleration and grip you will spend less money to buy an X-drive car and add even stickier tires than you would to buy a mechanical LSD.
STOP IT! STOP! DON'T TRY AND USE LOGIC, INTELLIGENCE AND RATIONAL THINKING TO AN INTERNETZ FORUMZ...

Haven't you read the rulez, you're not allowed to do that!
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      10-28-2014, 02:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdemon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
So with a elsd with one wheel spinning and the other appling brakes will have better traction then both wheels spinning?
Both wheels are spinning regardless, and you don't want them to be spinning, you want them to find the limit of grip as quickly as possible. In a real world application the computer is going to do a just fine of a job controlling it with the brakes in a straight line. The eLSD doesn't "Stop" one wheel with the brakes while the other one gets power, it applies friction which is the same thing the mechanical differential is doing inside.

Yes a mechanical LSD will help, but the real world value of it "on the street" is minimal.

My point still stands. If your concern is acceleration and grip you will spend less money to buy an X-drive car and add even stickier tires than you would to buy a mechanical LSD.
Awd is awd and is another topic. LSD Limited Slip Diff is call "Limited Slip" for a reason. Both wheel slip with controllable lock reacts faster than a elsd braking application. yes, is not noticable to many but enough for some to take advantage vs an open diff.

I have to correct my previous comment on rear wheel slip on acceleration I wasnt only talking about straight line

Like I said, its worth it if it was an option install vs a dealer install.
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      10-29-2014, 07:13 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tccox View Post
Welcome to North Carolina !! What part you moving to? Me , I chose manual but my driving is a 16 mile commute, two lane roads with little or no traffic. If I had to commute to downtown Charlotte everyday I'd have gotten that excellent ZF auto.
Agreed. If I live in the mountains with miles and miles of twisties and no traffic, I'll get the manual. But if my daily drive is sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in the morning and over an hour when I go home, automatic it is.
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      10-29-2014, 06:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvallido View Post
Agreed. If I live in the mountains with miles and miles of twisties and no traffic, I'll get the manual. But if my daily drive is sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in the morning and over an hour when I go home, automatic it is.
The M235i is a poor choice for a rolling la-z-boy, in auto or manual...
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      10-29-2014, 06:44 PM   #31
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Manual.

Got a MT for my wife who is not into cars. She had never driven one before, did not want one and was angry when I got it for her. After she learned to drive it she loves it. She said her next car would definitely need to have a MT.

As a matter of fact, she drove a loaner with auto and stated it was not nearly as sporty as her car.
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      10-29-2014, 07:01 PM   #32
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I gotta say, you have guts getting a MT for your wife who never drove one without telling her! That could have ended in disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abp689 View Post
Manual.

Got a MT for my wife who is not into cars. She had never driven one before, did not want one and was angry when I got it for her. After she learned to drive it she loves it. She said her next car would definitely need to have a MT.

As a matter of fact, she drove a loaner with auto and stated it was not nearly as sporty as her car.
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      10-30-2014, 12:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan84 View Post
I've only driven an M235i automatic, but I must say it was fun as hell to drive!



I'm not really directing this at you, Solarphil, it's more a general vent... but why must people perpetuate this "manual transmission = driving, automatic transmission != driving" attitude? I just don't understand it. Is it a reactionary way of defending one's manhood? My 5'2 100lb soaking wet girlfriend mindlessly drives her 5MT Jetta 1.8T Sport while jamming out to whatever club music she fancies. She doesn't feel the urge to chest bump me when she gets out of the car, as if to celebrate being able to row her own gears.

I've driven manuals as long as I've had a drivers license. My first car was a 91 Talon TSi AWD 5MT and every car since then, excluding my Tundra pickup, has been a manual. Despite that fact [that I've only ever owned MT cars] I'm probably getting a M235i with the automatic. Why? Because IMO, it's just as fun to drive, it's no more expensive than an MT, and it's faster [see Sports Car]. A car like this can be as engaging as you want it to be. Not having a third pedal doesn't take away your ability to DRIVE it.
No worries Dan, I don't take it personal and I don't mean it as an insult to folks who prefer the AT. Like I said, it's faster, a better numbers generator. I am just finding in the real world I have to question how much is the faster reflexes of the machine going to matter? How often outside a track can we get even close to our vehicle's limits? Just tonight coming home i booted it around a corner trying to find an edge to the adhesion -- I should add that this is in an industrial park, long after hours, should be no one around but of course there was -- and I got the stink eye for my hooliganism. My other car is a '74 Tii which I rebuilt in the old school way, skinny tires and all. At a recent driver's event one of the instructors jumped in and said my ride was the most fun he'd had all day 'cause we were actually moving around the track using all of the chassis. That to me is driving, and I can't get enough. It's the engagement, not the speed.

It's not a manhood slam or boy vs girl thing. Me, I don't like automatics but my wife, she despises them. Her only vehicle-related sin is, if it's kinda funky and you can't get parts for it, she loves it. It keeps me hopping but I love her for it. Sounds like you've got a keeper too.

Talon. That was a sweet ride.

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      10-30-2014, 04:52 AM   #34
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I have a 228 M Sport. I test drove both an auto and a manual. I drove the auto first and really like the car. I then drove a manual and thought well the auto was boring. The manual may be slower, but it feels a lot more fun in my opinion. I find a lot of people really appreciate the manual too..they're getting rare.
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      11-02-2014, 05:25 AM   #35
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Well, my 220i is just run in and I'm enjoying a long weekend on twisty mountain roads. Some opinions on the auto box and electronic limited slip diff. I've only ever owned manuals before.

I chose the 8-speed sports auto, which I use as a paddle-shift manual with left-foot braking. It's brilliant to drive it that way on tight, twisty roads. Gear selection is as near to instant as you could want, so you can brake and down-change later. It’s quicker to switch between power and brakes, and having both hands continually on the wheel gives a better feeling of control.
The gearbox locks up to give a mechanical connection in the top 7 gears – the torque converter is used just during the gear changes – so you still have the same throttle control as a manual – a key point for me. Probably no faster or slower than my stick-shift Cooper S on the same roads, but less compromise and just as much fun.

I was able to compare using the DSC and the electronic limited-slip diff on the uphill second-gear bends. The DSC traction control was quite intrusive at times, but the eLSD proved very effective - more grip even with more power applied, and no adverse handling.

Only downside of the auto is a 2500rpm gap between 2nd and 3rd. No worry in straight acceleration, but it's inconsistent when you're balancing the car on the throttle through tight bends. The higher gears are more closely and evenly spaced. On the plus side, the engine blip down into 2nd sounds really nice. :-) I haven't checked if the 228i and M235i have the same ratios.
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      11-02-2014, 08:43 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pw4 View Post
Well, my 220i is just run in and I'm enjoying a long weekend on twisty mountain roads. Some opinions on the auto box and electronic limited slip diff. I've only ever owned manuals before.

I chose the 8-speed sports auto, which I use as a paddle-shift manual with left-foot braking. It's brilliant to drive it that way on tight, twisty roads. Gear selection is as near to instant as you could want, so you can brake and down-change later. It’s quicker to switch between power and brakes, and having both hands continually on the wheel gives a better feeling of control.
The gearbox locks up to give a mechanical connection in the top 7 gears – the torque converter is used just during the gear changes – so you still have the same throttle control as a manual – a key point for me. Probably no faster or slower than my stick-shift Cooper S on the same roads, but less compromise and just as much fun.

I was able to compare using the DSC and the electronic limited-slip diff on the uphill second-gear bends. The DSC traction control was quite intrusive at times, but the eLSD proved very effective - more grip even with more power applied, and no adverse handling.

Only downside of the auto is a 2500rpm gap between 2nd and 3rd. No worry in straight acceleration, but it's inconsistent when you're balancing the car on the throttle through tight bends. The higher gears are more closely and evenly spaced. On the plus side, the engine blip down into 2nd sounds really nice. :-) I haven't checked if the 228i and M235i have the same ratios.
Is this really true? So from 2nd up it locks?
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      11-02-2014, 08:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one1er View Post
Is this really true? So from 2nd up it locks?
The ZF8 torque converter has a lock up clutch that kicks in after 1200RPM.
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      11-02-2014, 09:28 PM   #38
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I still have my 2002 Mustang GT with 5 speed that I've driven for the past 13 years. Fun car for sure, it's hard to beat a V8 stick when it comes to grin factor. With that being said, I had my 235 out on some twisties this afternoon after just picking up the car on Friday. Wow, full manual mode with paddle shifting was a ton of fun. Downshifts with throttle blips in sport mode brought out a lot of grins. I'm being a good boy and adhering (so far) to BMW's recommended 1,200 mile engine break in with RPM's under 4500. This car is quick from a dead stop with full torque available from 1500 rpm. I can only imagine what it will be like when it screams out to 6500 rpm. I get the stick fun factor, but for a daily driver with hilly terrain and rush hour traffic, (for me Merrit Parkway or I95 in Connecticut), the clutch thing got really tired after a while. This 8 speed auto has gotten rave reviews from all the clips that I watched on YouTube and all the columns I read when I was researching the car. Just be glad BMW still offers us a choice.
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      11-02-2014, 10:44 PM   #39
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I didn't really have any choice but the 8AT since my car is xDrive, and xDrive was a definite requirement for me. I had the 6AT in a E91 328ix wagon, and this trans is soooo much better than that one ever was. I also had 6MT in my E92 335is, and recall the shifter being long in throw and rubbery in feel. And don't forget about the clutch delay valve...

I've put about 600 miles on my M235iX since picking her up last weekend, and the 8AT has been great so far. One thing not mentioned here in the thread is the ability for the auto to maintain boost pressure during shifts, which would require either slam-shifting or a tune with flat-foot to be able to match with a manual. Doesn't entirely make up for the satisfaction of a perfect heel-toe downshift, but it does add an element to the experience with the auto 'box.

More than anything though, the 235 parks next to my '00 S2000, so I have access when the weather permits to arguably the finest manual gearbox in any mass market car.
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      11-04-2014, 08:50 AM   #40
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Down shifting in automatic mode

I agree with everyone here that assert that a manual is more engaging than an automatic but due to health problems with my legs I had to opt for an automatic on my m235.

I think people put too much emphasis on shift times in an automatic vs. a manual. Any decent driver can shift a manual quickly enough when up shifting through gears not to have to worry if an automatic is slightly quicker. The bigger question in my mind was whether the automatic would select the correct gear for each driving situation.

I just spent two weeks in Germany and Italy in my car doing some very spirited driving on country roads around lake Como area and alps region near Udine and I was thoroughly impressed how spot on accurate the automatic transmission was in sport mode. Excellent engine braking and I found that if you are braking heavily before entering a corner that the auto would downshift appropriately to get you in the right gear to power out of the corner on exit. The few times when I nudged it into a lower gear, I mostly felt I made a mistake. There is so much torque available at low RPM that you always have power on demand when you clip the apex. I like the fact that the dash display tells you what gear you are in but since this is an 8 speed automatic it was difficult to draw a correlation to a normal manual six speed. By that I mean often the car would be in 4th gear or even 5th gear when my brain would tell me it should have been in 3rd or 4th gear. For the most part the car likes to hum around at around 2,200 to 2,500 RPM which seems to be the sweet spot for stomping on the gas peddle when wanting to accelerate. I read somewhere that the shift points adapt to your driving style, but not sure that is true.
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      11-05-2014, 12:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tccox View Post
Welcome to North Carolina !! What part you moving to? Me , I chose manual but my driving is a 16 mile commute, two lane roads with little or no traffic. If I had to commute to downtown Charlotte everyday I'd have gotten that excellent ZF auto.
Ta
It is stilla year or two off, but Canton. It is right outside of Asheville.
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      11-05-2014, 12:11 PM   #42
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Decisions decisions

I drove both cars this past weekend. They had both the automatic and manual at a BMW dealer near me. I loved both cars, but I have to say it was pretty annoying in the automatic when I wanted to downshift it wouldn't go down. That was one of the main problems with my Mercedes, you could use flappy paddles, but to the car it was more of a suggestion of the gear rather that a demand. I am also going to order my car.I wanted to wait for the 2015/2016 M2, but I think it is too far off for me. I read a post that it wouldn't be out until 2016 for the US.
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      11-05-2014, 12:46 PM   #43
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I drove both cars this past weekend. They had both the automatic and manual at a BMW dealer near me. I loved both cars, but I have to say it was pretty annoying in the automatic when I wanted to downshift it wouldn't go down. That was one of the main problems with my Mercedes, you could use flappy paddles, but to the car it was more of a suggestion of the gear rather that a demand. I am also going to order my car.I wanted to wait for the 2015/2016 M2, but I think it is too far off for me. I read a post that it wouldn't be out until 2016 for the US.
I've never had my car refuse a downshift during spirited driving. The computer will reject the command if you try and shift into an improper rev range, but you're no doubt aware of this already. The car restricts usage of launch control until fully warmed up; I wonder whether it also takes engine temperature into account before allowing a shift into a high range.
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      11-05-2014, 01:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWcoupe View Post
I still have my 2002 Mustang GT with 5 speed that I've driven for the past 13 years. Fun car for sure, it's hard to beat a V8 stick when it comes to grin factor. With that being said, I had my 235 out on some twisties this afternoon after just picking up the car on Friday. Wow, full manual mode with paddle shifting was a ton of fun. Downshifts with throttle blips in sport mode brought out a lot of grins. I'm being a good boy and adhering (so far) to BMW's recommended 1,200 mile engine break in with RPM's under 4500. This car is quick from a dead stop with full torque available from 1500 rpm. I can only imagine what it will be like when it screams out to 6500 rpm. I get the stick fun factor, but for a daily driver with hilly terrain and rush hour traffic, (for me Merrit Parkway or I95 in Connecticut), the clutch thing got really tired after a while. This 8 speed auto has gotten rave reviews from all the clips that I watched on YouTube and all the columns I read when I was researching the car. Just be glad BMW still offers us a choice.

even more fun with MT!!
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