[Xiaofeng]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Believe me I quite happy with my purchase. But at least you didn't have to resort to personal attacks and insults to make your point. I'm not saying every 135/335 owner is out to prove something but too many ARE! Just look at a quick search I did, yes they are all actual threads:
It's just gotten silly...
BMW 335i vs Bentley Continental GT
335 vs 350z
335 sstt vs E500
RSX Type-S vs 335i
Raced a 350z
335i coupe vs. cayman s
335 vs evo x
335i vs 2007 350z
gt500 or 335i
etc.

Metak,

Please bear with me, as I fear this may be a lengthy retort.

My post was simply an observation of your initial message, which was laced with contempt and bitterness. Instead of providing any constructive feedback, whether positive or negative, you immediately dismiss VDPBK's review with:

Originally Posted by ///Metak

I should have known that this was a trojan horse thread, but read it anyway. Now evrything is >///M division? Please...

Again, I don't see anything in VDPHB's review that can lead you to come to such bold conclusions such as "...[everything] is > ///M Division". This is simply a statement to incite tempers and provoke others. Since you have opened the door to debate, I will venture through it.

Now, in direct response to this particular post, and to your point that there are an overabundance of "335i vs. <insert car here>" threads, I am in total agreement. That's why I don't ever post in any of those silly "kill stories" topics. However, those threads have no bearing on this particular topic, and to liken this particular review into another one of those "kill stories" is borderline absurd.



Since you felt it necessary to analyze VDPBH's review bit by bit while inserting your own conjectures, please allow me to be a counterpoint. However, before we continue any further and to avoid any confusion of where I personally stand in this issue:

The M5 is a better car than the 335i.

Well, with that out of the way, let's get started, shall we?

Originally Posted by VDPHB

Now the power...bear in mind that this car is broken in, so P500 mode (500 HP) was available. In 400 HP mode, the car is docile...almost to the point of being boring. It's smooth, yet takes a lot of throttle to get it going and with an 8250 RPM redline, my 335i will easily beat it in the cut and thrust of daily driving.

While I concede that this statement is a bit of a stretch, it is not without merit. As most people know, the 335i puts out close to 300 lb.ft. of torque from roughly 2,000 RPM to 5,000 RPM. Looking at some E60 M5 dyno charts, the M5 is outputting roughly the same amount, and stays fairly flat until about 5,000 RPM, whereby it climbs to a stated maximum of 383 lb.ft. @ 6,100 RPM. However, the OP specifically states "in 400HP mode", which limits the engine's output to 80%. Given a oversimplified model, the M5 is creating about 80-85% of the torque that the 335i is over the 2,000 to 5,000 RPM range, and since the M5 is about 400 pounds heavier than the 335i, it's not unfathomable for the 335i to be slightly quicker when not revving to high RPMs, e.g. when driving around in the city.


(I've included the next paragraph in its entirety, as you decided to take the single sentence out of context in order to make your point.)

Originally Posted by VDPHB

In P500 Sport mode, as Jeremy on Top Gear would say..."GET OUT OF THE WAY"! This thing is a monster. It just loves revs. The only other engines that I've experienced that love to rev as much are Honda DOHC VTEC engines, but the M5's engine has more torque, a much meaner snarl, and a blaring exhaust note. With such a high redline and wide power band, I was disappointed that I could never truly realize it's true potential. The fact that I was able to hit 110 on an onramp and the car not even feel strained was sobering. This car truly comes alive when driven hard and if anything, feels held back and unhappy tooling around town.

I don't see a single mention of the 335i in this entire paragraph, or even a bash on the M5, for that matter. VDPHB simply stated that not being able to fully enjoy the car the way it was meant to be driven (i.e. pull to the 8,250 RPM redline) was disappointing. However, even taking your argument into consideration, how often do you rev your Z4M coupe or your M3 all the way to redline in everyday driving. 10% of the time? 20%? 30%? That leaves the other 70-90% of the time in lower rev ranges, which is precisely where the 335i makes most of its power. In fact, the 335i is somewhat strained once you go past 6,000 RPM, as the twin snails can't spin fast enough to provide more top-end power to the engine. They're different cars entirely, but nowhere does VDPHB state the 335i was a better car.

Originally Posted by VDPHB

1. The 335i really moves off the line and loves to rev. It feels much faster than the M5 off the line, but give the M5 some room and it's no contest. Dare I say that the sound of the 335i's engine is more sonorous than the M5's. Not as thrilling or aggressive, but more beautiful.

There are two separate issues in this point. The first is that VDPHB claims the 335i feels faster off the line, but give the M5 some room and it's NO CONTEST. This is not an argument between the 335i and the M5 so much as it is a comparison between the driving characteristics of a high torque forced induction engine and a high revving naturally aspirated engine. High torque engines provide an "instant" kick when accelerating, which gives the impression of fast acceleration, while a high revving NA engine builds smoothly to it's peak power. Does that mean that NAs are not as fast? Hell no! Case in point.

The second part of this sentence is completely subjective, and is simply VDPHB stating his own personal preference. For example, some people loved the "rasp" of the E46 M3 (myself included), while others prefer the lower rumble of the 335i. Does the exhaust note of a car make one better than another? Some people would argue that the exhaust note from a V8 Mustang sounds better than the 335i. Does that make the Mustang a better car? I would beg to differ.

Originally Posted by VDPHB

2. "Adjustability" - The M5 has way too many adjustments on it. There are 3 power/throttle settings, 6 manual shift modes, 5 auto shift modes, 3 EDC modes, 3 DSC settings, and 2 steering settings. That's just to decide how much power the car should have, how it should shift, how it should ride, how much trouble it should let you get into, and how heavy the steering should feel. I completely realize that once you set the M Mode, you pretty much drive it in default P400 mode or M Mode, but gimme a break. Just let me drive the damn thing! (I must be getting old.)

Again, this paragraph is a subjective opinion, but it is not without merit. Given what VDPHB has stated, there are 3 power settings, 11 shift modes, 3 EDC settings, 3 DSC settings, and 2 steering settings.

3 x 11 x 3 x 3 x 2 = 594 different setting combinations.

Is this too complex for some people? Perhaps. But just as there are a boundless number of iDrive naysayers, there are those that find the system quite intuitive.

Originally Posted by VDPHB

3. Gas - I realize that if you have enough money to afford an M5, gas isn't an issue, but I did have a laugh when the low fuel warning came on and there was still 1/4 of the tank (18.5 gallon tank). At that point, with 4 gallons, the range was reading 66 miles. Let's just say 11 City/17 Hwy. I was able to eke out 18.8 MPG over an 80 mile highway stint driving it like a Prius, but realistically, expect 13 MPG in mixed driving. On the same 80 mile drive home, I averaged 29 in my 335i. My friend's wife jokes that she feels like she's constantly putting fuel into the M5 and now I believe her.

I'm not sure how this is even relevant to your argument. In terms of fuel economy as a daily driver, 335i > M5. Period. Which car would I rather have, given the choice? M5. Period. Where do you see that one car is better than the other except in terms of daily fuel consumption?

(Again, I will include the next paragraph in its entirety for clarity's sake.)

Originally Posted by VDPHB

I thought I would be bummed hopping back into my 335i from the M5. From all of power to the size, handling, and ride combination and plethora of comfort features, I figured my car would feel like a stripped tin can, kinda like going from the Space Shuttle to a Cessna. Surprisingly, I think I like it better than the M5 for my needs. It's punchier around town, sized perfectly for urban and suburban driving, and more tactile with the road while still be comfortable enough. It definitely doesn't have the edge that the M5 possesses, but to be frank, the M5 felt unhappy around town and in casual highway driving. Like a Honda/Acura VTEC engine, you have to drive it like you're pissed at it for it to come alive. Get it to that point and the M5 is spectacular.

This is simply a summarization of the points that VDPHB made in his review, and a personal reflection of his own needs. Last I checked, VDPHB's personal driving needs didn't make the actual 335i a better car than an M5. He even says outright that when unrestrained, the "M5 is spectacular."

Originally Posted by VDPHB

In the end, given the $97,000 MSRP on the M5 I drove, I'd rather buy a 335i or an M3 and buy a second car with the $45,000 or $30,000 I would have left over to really have some fun or utility with if I needed it.

No disrespect to those who have an M5, because if I could afford one, I'd take it, but I'm not only content, I'm very happy with my 335i purchase.

Let's face it; not everyone can afford an M5. The OP already states that if he could afford one, he would buy the M5 instead. In otherwords, the M5 is a better car.

winner=M5

...Wait a minute, isn't that your argument?

Originally Posted by ///Metak

The write up was very well written. By that, I mean it was subtle in it's intent. If you truly want to do a write up on your M5 driving impressions then do just that. Instead you chose to compliment the M5 only to follow up with why you think the 335i is better. Your opinion though and your entiteled to it and so am I. Just don't piss in people's face and then tell them it's just a little rain.

You claim that you are finding all these subtle hints that VDPHB is supposedly making, yet you miss all the points that he has laid out right in front of you. You accuse me of making personal attacks on you, but here you are directly attacking VDPHB. Instead of barging in here, crying wolf, and calling him a 335i fanboy and a liar, why not hold a more constructive and civilized discussion? By ranting about how 335i owners always think their cars are the greatest thing since sliced bread, you have just become that which you despise the most.


My apologies for the horrendously long thread, but I felt that someone needed to stand up for VDPHB, who has already apologized needlessly for something that someone else implied. If anything, I think you owe VDPHB an apology.

[Xiaofeng]

Originally Posted by VDPHB

Thanks for the compliment and explanation Xiaofeng, although since you drive a 335 too, your words have to be taken with a grain of salt

Just kidding....

I'm a 335i owner and I'm young, so you'd better take what I say with a whole pound of salt!!!

Because, you know, I might insinuate that the 335i > *.*

Originally Posted by Xiaofeng

The M5 is a better car than the 335i.

...Sorry, now I'm just being facetious.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by Xiaofeng

....You accuse me of making personal attacks on you, but here you are directly attacking VDPHB. Instead of barging in here, crying wolf, and calling him a 335i fanboy and a liar, why not hold a more constructive and civilized discussion? By ranting about how 335i owners always think their cars are the greatest thing since sliced bread, you have just become that which you despise the most.

My apologies for the horrendously long thread, but I felt that someone needed to stand up for VDPHB, who has already apologized needlessly for something that someone else implied. If anything, I think you owe VDPHB an apology.

Xiampong,
I NEVER accused you of making personal attacks on me, in fact this is what I said:

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Believe me I quite happy with my purchase. But at least you didn't have to resort to personal attacks and insults to make your point....

See, the n't means NOT, in case you didn't know. I have been attacked by being called a troll. Again this is a Universal section[ZPOST > BimmerPost Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion].

Secondly, I never called VDPHB "a liar" as you put it. I never called him a fanboy either, but if the shoe fits....

Lastly, I'm glad you are the hero for this forum to save the downtrodden. The fact is, I avoid the 335i vs. __fill in the blank__, but in this case I entered thinking I was going to read about the M5, not this is the M5 it's a great car BUT.... So it ended up being a M5 vs. 335i thread in my opinion.

As far as you accussing me of becoming what I despise most? As far as I can remember I never once mention what cars I owned in the past or present and how much better my car is. I still feel this was a bit of a "trojan horse" as I put it, that's just how I feel. So I will bow out of this thread without any hard feelings, you guys can get back OT and in the future I will keep these types opinions to myself, peace out!

[VDPHB]

Xiaofeng - Thanks for the analysis of my review. You summed up my intent and read into my review correctly. In fact, you were spot on. So if I were an English professor, I'd give you an A+.

Metak - You're right, you're entitled to your opinion of my review. Unfortunately, I think your comment of "if the shoe fits" is inappropriate, because it doesn't.

In life and in any type of opinion, we have to use our prior experiences as a point of reference.

From the title of the thread to the opening paragraph of the review, I told the reader what I currently drive and what I have owned. You would be hard pressed to find a published test of a car that doesn't compare it to another in some way shape or form. For example, every test of a G35, Lexus IS, or MB C-Class will compare those vehicles to a BMW 3 series as the benchmark and the writer will refer to the BMW's steering feel, engine refinement or all around goodness. In a test of luxury sedans, you'll hear the term Lexus-like thrown around referring to refinement, built like a bank vault referring to Mercedes, and more. I could go on and on, but it comes down to trying to communicate to the reader.

In other words, when someone reviews a product, they will always have to give a point of reference for their comments, whether it be explicit or implicit. A perfect example would be one of us writing a review of a Lexus LS460. We'd probably tear it to pieces compared to our car, but that's because internally, we'd be comparing it to our BMWs. We'd probably say....it's extremely quiet, fast, blah blah blah, but a bit soft and isolated. Well, compared to what? Exactly...our cars and what we drive. If we let our grandparents or parents write it, (and I realize I'm stereotyping here because my dad would take the BMW), they'd probably say it was the best thing since sliced bread. Whether or not we explicitly state that is key and if it were on this forum, it'd be implicit if it wasn't stated because this is a BMW forum.

From the very start of my review, I made my point of reference clear and I also concluded that the M5 was a better car and if I had the money, I would buy one. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion was wrong about my intent and I even clearly pointed that out to you, and tried to make it clear, yet you persisted. In essence, you did what you said you disliked about many threads, which was take the thread off topic and turn it into a this vs. that thread.

You're probably not going to reply based on your last post, and between me, Xiaofeng and a few other posters, this thread has gone off topic, but maybe now people will read through this and think...hmmm...that was an interesting review of an M5 as opposed to "dang...these guys all need to grow up".

[gbelton]

Okay... After listening (Reading) everyone's post thus far, I can see both points from the OP and Metak's.

I thought the OP was good. I was fooled a bit though... I thought the review would be about the M5 and not the 335i (Good, Bad, and the Ugly versus comparo). I understand we all have our baselines (Experiences) and that's all good but I was expecting a M5 review and yes from a 335i driver and owner.

Repeat: Nothing wrong with the OP's viewpoint. Even if he bashed the M5 outright (IMO the OP did not), I would take it as novice experience but an experience nonetheless. Why? Because driving a car for a few hours, days, or weeks, really doesn't expose a true view and value of that car.

I am not upset with the OP for his opinions. Like the OP said, he is a FAN of automobiles. We are all here for a common theme (BMW). I am not upset with Matek's response either because I know exactly where his comments come from (IMO). Although many of you seem to believe that Matek's view and read on the OP's post is unfounded, I believe there is merit in his view based on the OP's post.

I did not post my comments to dead the issue or stirr it up, I wanted to share my opinion as a E60 M5, E92 M3, E66 750Li current owner and a E64 645Cic, E64 650Ci, E92 335i, E46 330ci performance, E70 X5, and E39 540i Sport previous owner.

Side note: OP, do you have any pics to share of your 335i next to the M5?

[Xiaofeng]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Xiampong,
I NEVER accused you of making personal attacks on me, in fact this is what I said:

See, the n't means NOT, in case you didn't know. I have been attacked by being called a troll. Again this is a Universal section[ZPOST > BimmerPost Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion].

Metak,

(Sorry, not sure how I got "Malek" out of "Metak". This has been fixed.)

First and foremost, thank you for the clarification on your post. I had glanced over the words "at least", which when omitted brings about a very different context to the sentence. It was an erroneous omission on my part, and for that I humbly apologize.


However, the rest of my points still stand.

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Secondly, I never called VDPHB "a liar" as you put it. I never called him a fanboy either, but if the shoe fits....

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Just don't piss in people's face and then tell them it's just a little rain.

When I read this sentence, I see it as akin to to calling someone arrogant and a liar. If there is another way to interpret this sentence, please enlighten me. As for the fanboy bit, that was implied throughout your entire "analysis".

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Lastly, I'm glad you are the hero for this forum to save the downtrodden. The fact is, I avoid the 335i vs. __fill in the blank__, but in this case I entered thinking I was going to read about the M5, not this is the M5 it's a great car BUT.... So it ended up being a M5 vs. 335i thread in my opinion.

I never intended for myself to become "...the hero for this forum to save the downtrodden", and in fact had no intention to make another reply until you felt it necessary to dissect the OP's post piece by piece. You had made your points in your view, and I only felt it fair for someone to provide a bit of balance.

Originally Posted by ///Metak

I still feel this was a bit of a "trojan horse" as I put it, that's just how I feel. So I will bow out of this thread without any hard feelings, you guys can get back OT and in the future I will keep these types opinions to myself, peace out!

Well, we seem to have gotten off on quite the wrong foot. While we may disagree on the interpretation of this topic, please know that it was not my intention to impart ill will, as I am always open to a healthy and civilized debate. I don't know if curiosity will entice you to read this response in the future, but I again extend the opportunity for camaraderie amongst fellow BMW owners and enthusiasts.

[VDPHB]

gbelton - Thanks for your input and opinion...point taken on the fact that I can't truly appreciate the M5 after just a weekend, but hey, it's better than a short dealer test drive right? Either way, it is a spectacular car. As far as pics go, I don't have any because I picked up the M5 on Wednesday night and left my car in Newport and swapped cars again on Sunday night. I will say though...(flame suit really on now)...I think the M5 looks better than my 335i thanks to those now not so subtle M touches and especially because of the flared fenders.

Metak & gbelton - I apologize if my review and point of reference came across as a comparison. I could say the M5 was the best car I've ever driven (it's among the top 3, but to say definitively would take a lot of reflection), but I thought that using what I know best, which is my car as a baseline, would give you all a better understanding of my experience and perspective.

IMHO, it's important to give readers a point of reference for my subjective opinions on something so others know where I'm coming from. The reason for this is if I had written the M5 review and my primary car was a Lexus or on the other end of the spectrum, a Chevy Aveo, my opinion would be wildly different.

All cars have strengths and weaknesses, it's just the number and depth of them that vary. In the end, most of our experiences are subjective and this thread shows that we are all passionate about our cars and we wouldn't be putting our money and our time here where our mouths (or fingers) are if we weren't. I think all of us (Metak, Xiaofeng, gbelton) can agree on that.

Maybe we all need ESP....

[94JZA80]

excellent write-up. i enjoyed it very much, and it was very informative - especially from the point of view of a 335i owner. however, when you say that the M5 was "too much car" for you, do you mean with respect to sport luxury coupes/sedans? or do you mean cars in general?..b/c i'd hate to see what you have to say about a GT or a true sports car if the M5 was too much to handle.

[gbelton]

VDPHB,

Your weekend drive with the M5 is surely better than a 30 minute ride from the dealership.

In terms of looks for me, I defer my liking to the 335i. The reason is because the lines are very similar to the (E63) 6 series IMO. So far the 6 series would be my favorite BMW.

Your points are well noted!

Now, let's talk about some other car related topics.

[Riss Racing]

I have an E60 M5, and never drive it since I got my E92 335i. I honestly enjoy driving the 335i more than the M5.

[gbelton]

Originally Posted by Riss Racing

I have an E60 M5, and never drive it since I got my E92 335i. I honestly enjoy driving the 335i more than the M5.

You get great joy out of it huh?

How do you drive it? Hard, aggressive, cruiser??

[VDPHB]

Originally Posted by 94JZA80

excellent write-up. i enjoyed it very much, and it was very informative - especially from the point of view of a 335i owner. however, when you say that the M5 was "too much car" for you, do you mean with respect to sport luxury coupes/sedans? or do you mean cars in general?..b/c i'd hate to see what you have to say about a GT or a true sports car if the M5 was too much to handle.

Hey 94JZA80,

No, it definitely isn't too much car for me from a handling, power, etc standpoint. That statement is more from a daily driver in an urban/suburban commuter environment perspective. It's almost a shame that a car with a performance envelope as large and capable as an M5s is used as a grocery getter or commute car with limited opportunities to open it up. Conversely though, that's what makes it so special, the fact that it can be a great track and road vehicle. If I had to pick one to commute in, money no object, of course I'd pick the M5. Besides...the seats in the M5 make mine seem a bit pedestrian in comparison.

As far as a GT or true sports car (a la Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, Maserati, Porsche), I've never had the privilege of driving one of those day in/day out. No doubt they are all awesome cars...question is, would you drive it every day or if you could afford one of those, would you have an everyday car.

Hope that makes sense....

[94JZA80]

Originally Posted by VDPHB

Hope that makes sense....

that makes perfect sense...


that being said, i would definitely have a daily driver in addition to something like a Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche if i were able to afford one in the first place. as a matter of fact, i have a daily driver right now b/c, although i love to thrash the Supra regularly, i hate putting miles on her. unfortunately for me, my daily was a Celica (until it blew up), and will soon be replaced with another Japanese economy car (though i wish i could afford to replace the Celica with a new M5 ).

[///AFRO]

[jhv]

draaaamaaaaa

anyway, awesome write up VDPHB!

[guru28]

Dude, that was one hell of a write-up. Also, unlike a lot of members here, you can actually spell and use the english language properly. Two thumbs up, way up!

[jhv]

Originally Posted by guru28

Dude, that was one hell of a write-up. Also, unlike a lot of members here, you can actually spell and use the english language properly. Two thumbs up, way up!

+6798697

[VDPHB]

LOL....thanks for the compliments guys, I'm sure many of us can write properly. It seems that in today's day and age, texting, emailing, instant messaging writing styles has migrated into more everyday writing, which is a bit unfortunate. I even laugh at my cursive nowadays...my elementary school teachers would be bummed. Oh well huh?

[Xiaofeng]

See my signature.

(Sorry about the )

[gbelton]

LOL

[Riss Racing]

Originally Posted by gbelton

You get great joy out of it huh?

How do you drive it? Hard, aggressive, cruiser??

I choose D, all of the above.

[yazz]

i thought it was funny that you mentioned top gear in your essay, because jeremy clarkson hated the M5 until he found the "M" button on the steering wheel