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      02-22-2009, 05:17 PM   #45
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If they put the M3 V8 in more of a sports car, I would have been very inclined to buy it. The M3 is a bit too large for me. If the next gen Z4 is available with that motor, I'd be inclined to take it for a spin. Perhaps the GF will let met get away with a two seater this time around?

The Z4MC was a very serious competitor for my 135i, but in the end I went for the back seat. The M3 was eliminated quickly for me because I did not think it $35k better, though it is a lovely car.

I was basically thinking LS3 C6, Z4MC, 135i, 350Z, G37S, 335i, S4, for reference.
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      02-22-2009, 09:03 PM   #46
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i agree with you on this about the m3 being so large. the m3 is my next car that i want though. i just wish it was large. i also agree with the guy/girl above, the amount of attention that goes into the m cars are more emphasized.
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      02-27-2009, 12:30 AM   #47
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M3 is over sized sports car that's over priced for the numbers that it puts down. If i wanted a sports coupe that large I rather just get the 4 door.
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      02-27-2009, 12:35 AM   #48
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M3 is over sized sports car that's over priced for the numbers that it puts down. If i wanted a sports coupe that large I rather just get the 4 door.
false statement. it has one of the best slalom times (probably the best for a 4-door), stupid fast track times, and decent acceleration times.

if all you're looking at is acceleration numbers then I'm sorry, that's dumb. besides, judging a car by numbers is even more stupid.
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      02-27-2009, 12:47 AM   #49
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the amount of attention that goes into the m cars are more emphasized.
this makes sense when you think about it, but i need you to elaborate.
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m cars are more agressive cars. they appeal to a different crowd of people. ad the 135 appeals to the majority of people. bmw designed the 135 as a car that people could enjoy in the city. m cars are for people who like the driving experience and people who actually drive the car not the car drives them. so why on earth would bmw offer a non m car that outperforms their m series if their m series is performance oriented.
that's a ridiculously smug, indirectly-insulting statement to all non-m owners. my fair reaction to this statement would be "fuck you, i like to drive my cars you badge whore", but i'm not thinking that. hey, i'm a nice guy, what can i say. what i would like to say is that a 135i is almost as fun to drive as an m3 (and obviously not as fun as your m coupe. i bow down to those after having tracked them). and all BMWs are performance-oriented. that's like the damn mantra of the brand dude.
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just because it has an M badge does not make it a different driving experience, don't be a badge whore
i agree. while he might not be a full-on badge whore, he still has traces, whether he'll admit it or not. take off the badges, pretend the looks are the same, and focus on the driving experience/technology. it's up another level, but it doesn't mean that all the cars beneath it aren't performance-oriented, that's just plain ignorant.
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Both of these cars rip. Just choose one and be happy.
for once, i agree with you.
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      02-27-2009, 03:31 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blklacker View Post
M3 is over sized sports car that's over priced for the numbers that it puts down. If i wanted a sports coupe that large I rather just get the 4 door.
epic fail.
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      02-27-2009, 04:36 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by blklacker View Post
M3 is over sized sports car that's over priced for the numbers that it puts down. If i wanted a sports coupe that large I rather just get the 4 door.
"The numbers". I wish so much people could get past "numbers." Numbers as in acceleration times (as I assume he's referring to...and the fact these times are close anyway and all respectable) really mean very little in the real world, and is so one-dimensional and alone doesn't come close to characterizing the car nor driving experience. I don't drive at 10/10ths wherever I go, so my car's maximum potential isn't that much of an issue. What is essential to me is the feel of the car and the joy of driving it, steering feedback and precision, the cornering, the plantedness, the sound, etc. Yes, acceleration is important, but any car in a 5 second range to 0-60 is plenty quick for the real world, and all of these cars are.

You also MUST realize BMW has to make compromises for economy and for mass market appeal. They aren't making dedicated track cars. Performance is at a compromise to economy and liveability. The M3 is an amazing car to be able to be so tame when driven with ease, yet so beastly capable when driven at 10/10ths. Also, another thing many M owners would agree to is they feel the cars are geared too tall as OEM. Better for maximum fuel economy and tire life, but many would prefer the extra grunt across the whole rpm range which results in a very healthy increase in acceleration for a small sacrifice in economy.
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      02-27-2009, 06:37 AM   #52
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... I think the preference depends on the driver ...
That's true of everything in life.
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      02-27-2009, 08:03 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
this makes sense when you think about it, but i need you to elaborate.

that's a ridiculously smug, indirectly-insulting statement to all non-m owners. my fair reaction to this statement would be "fuck you, i like to drive my cars you badge whore", but i'm not thinking that. hey, i'm a nice guy, what can i say. what i would like to say is that a 135i is almost as fun to drive as an m3 (and obviously not as fun as your m coupe. i bow down to those after having tracked them). and all BMWs are performance-oriented. that's like the damn mantra of the brand dude.

i agree. while he might not be a full-on badge whore, he still has traces, whether he'll admit it or not. take off the badges, pretend the looks are the same, and focus on the driving experience/technology. it's up another level, but it doesn't mean that all the cars beneath it aren't performance-oriented, that's just plain ignorant.

for once, i agree with you.
hey, i didn't mean for you to interpret what i said that way. and if you did i am sorry. i never said that non m cars aren't performance oriented because that is what BMW is about, the ultimate driving machine. but i was just expressing an opinion. take the nissan skyline for example. that is a car that you can just jump into and anybody can drive. that is what i referred to a car that drives you because you don't have to put much empasize in the driving. I was saying that m cars you have to learn how to drive them. the whole thing that i said about the driving experience, i didn't mean for it to sound the way it did, i meant it to be people who like the m style driving experience. non m and m cars are different in the direction of performance. i never drove the 135, but i am sure it is a fun car. so sorry for the way it came out, i am one of the nicest guys you would ever meet, but i just don't have a way with wording things if you know what i mean.

for the comment about me elaborating more. i was watching a show about the bmw factory. it was actually how they build the z4. the things they did to the m were different than the z4. they just paid attention to details differently, than a non m car. the m cars are more focused to achieve performance, because that is the direction they try to head with the cars. now i am not saying that non m cars aren't a performance car, just that they have a different goal they try to achieve, performance without the sacrifice of comfort. i hope i am not trying to sound like an ass hole, and i am definetly not a badge whore, sorry for a false image of myself. all bmws are excellent cars!
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      02-27-2009, 11:47 AM   #54
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^^ Pertaining to above.

Don't worry about it. I always wanted an M car for the ultimate Ultimate Driving Machine experience. Never once did I want to own one so as to be part of some "special" club or cult. But what I've found is you get a lot of projections from non-M owners generalizing you as some sort of snobish holier than thou-type no matter what you say, especially if you dare to comment of M car superiority without simultaneously praising what they're driving. Oh, and if you dare praise your own car while bashing theirs, then you're just a badge whore. It's all really silly. Last I checked people are free to purchase whatever floats their boat. People have different needs and desires. I'm motorsport-minded, so I like having cars/bikes that satisfy that side of me. I fully recognize that I could have spent a lot less on my cars and bike and have gotten essentially the same performance, or perhaps a little less or little more. But I like it most when these tangible objects do their jobs well and are equally cool to own and operate. Personally I prefer to enjoy my cars/bike in mostly anonymity. Please allow M owners to take pride in their purchases without being labeled so much--especially badge whore which is so overused (for those that do).
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      02-27-2009, 08:16 PM   #55
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"The numbers". I wish so much people could get past "numbers." Numbers as in acceleration times (as I assume he's referring to...and the fact these times are close anyway and all respectable) really mean very little in the real world, and is so one-dimensional and alone doesn't come close to characterizing the car nor driving experience. I don't drive at 10/10ths wherever I go, so my car's maximum potential isn't that much of an issue. What is essential to me is the feel of the car and the joy of driving it, steering feedback and precision, the cornering, the plantedness, the sound, etc. Yes, acceleration is important, but any car in a 5 second range to 0-60 is plenty quick for the real world, and all of these cars are.

You also MUST realize BMW has to make compromises for economy and for mass market appeal. They aren't making dedicated track cars. Performance is at a compromise to economy and liveability. The M3 is an amazing car to be able to be so tame when driven with ease, yet so beastly capable when driven at 10/10ths. Also, another thing many M owners would agree to is they feel the cars are geared too tall as OEM. Better for maximum fuel economy and tire life, but many would prefer the extra grunt across the whole rpm range which results in a very healthy increase in acceleration for a small sacrifice in economy.
In the real world M3 handles second to none, never said it didn't, It just isn't fun to drive unless your pushing/punishing the rpm's above 5k everywhere you go . The M3 lacks the torque to provide power on demand and fails to be fun car to drive in real world situations. That's why plenty of people will agree that 135i is a better driving experience in the real world. On the track thats another story, M3 coupe is just to expensive for the lack of torque. torque=fun
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      02-27-2009, 10:08 PM   #56
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i agree! i wish my car had just a little more low end and mid range torque. I am doing the best i can to fix that. i am sure the 135 is a blast to drive.
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      02-28-2009, 01:37 AM   #57
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Quote:
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-

The level of attention that goes into an M-car, up to 80% of parts are changed / modified depending on the model & function:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...ess_163340.htm

135i is great, but is not at this level engineering - what can't be seen / measured precisely.
I'm quoting this because it pertains to what I have to say next.
vvv

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hey, i didn't mean for you to interpret what i said that way. and if you did i am sorry. i never said that non m cars aren't performance oriented because that is what BMW is about, the ultimate driving machine. but i was just expressing an opinion. take the nissan skyline for example. that is a car that you can just jump into and anybody can drive. that is what i referred to a car that drives you because you don't have to put much empasize in the driving. I was saying that m cars you have to learn how to drive them. the whole thing that i said about the driving experience, i didn't mean for it to sound the way it did, i meant it to be people who like the m style driving experience. non m and m cars are different in the direction of performance. i never drove the 135, but i am sure it is a fun car. so sorry for the way it came out, i am one of the nicest guys you would ever meet, but i just don't have a way with wording things if you know what i mean.

for the comment about me elaborating more. i was watching a show about the bmw factory. it was actually how they build the z4. the things they did to the m were different than the z4. they just paid attention to details differently, than a non m car. the m cars are more focused to achieve performance, because that is the direction they try to head with the cars. now i am not saying that non m cars aren't a performance car, just that they have a different goal they try to achieve, performance without the sacrifice of comfort. i hope i am not trying to sound like an ass hole, and i am definetly not a badge whore, sorry for a false image of myself. all bmws are excellent cars!
I did see that special, and it was really amazing to say the least. However, I think the wording you both used is incorrect. The detail going into both camps is the same, it's just that they're built with different goals in mind. The amount of detail going into our suspensions is just as high I'm sure. It's just that they're tuned as well as possible to provide a soft ride alongside a sporty demeanor. The M Cars have different parts, but that doesn't make them any more detailed. That makes them different. I hope I'm wording this properly. In fact, I think I'm basically re-wording what you just wrote, lol.

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i agree! i wish my car had just a little more low end and mid range torque. I am doing the best i can to fix that. i am sure the 135 is a blast to drive.
Honestly, if I didn't have to have the extra set of seats I'd trade my car for an M Coupe on the spot. Amazing car. AMAZING handling. I loved everything about it for the two days I had to spend with it at the track. It made the M5/M6 feel downright boring, with weight being the primary issue. I wouldn't even bother increasing the power. Just black out the grilles, black out the lower midsection of the bumper between the brake ducts, black out the roof panel, tint it, drop it, and add some wheels. That's what I'd do at least.
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      02-28-2009, 03:33 AM   #58
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the only characteristic I dont like about the N54 is the power drops significantly at 5.5 to 7krpm. otherwise the car pulls like a bull on mad cow disease
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      02-28-2009, 03:36 AM   #59
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the only characteristic I dont like about the N54 is the power drops significantly at 5.5 to 7krpm. otherwise the car pulls like a bull on mad cow disease
I hate this too, but if you buy a piggyback it really does remedy that prob for the mostpart.
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      02-28-2009, 05:48 AM   #60
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In the real world M3 handles second to none, never said it didn't, It just isn't fun to drive unless your pushing/punishing the rpm's above 5k everywhere you go . The M3 lacks the torque to provide power on demand and fails to be fun car to drive in real world situations. That's why plenty of people will agree that 135i is a better driving experience in the real world. On the track thats another story, M3 coupe is just to expensive for the lack of torque. torque=fun

You're right, torque equals fun. But engine torque alone means little without taking into consideration the affect gearing has on total torque measured at the rear wheels/pavement. It's the combined engine torque and gearing that affects acceleration. The M3 due to its lower gearing (compared to your car) produces massively more torque across almost the entire rpm spectrum (up to 2500 rpms the torque is virtually the same on both cars). Above 2500 rpms, the M3 is putting down measurably more torque on the road (killing it in fact), which is why it's much quicker even taking into consideration its weight disadvantage. There's no such thing as trying to equate engine torque to acceleration (or pull, or even "torque=fun", etc.) without taking into consideration the affect of gearing. Ultimately, the N54 has a lot of torque as a motor, but combined with the gearing BMW selected for it, it doesn't take near the same advantage as either the S54 or S65 equipped M cars. You don't have to have the most torquey engine when you have the right gearing. It's better to have a higher revving engine that produces strong torque up to redline than a more torquey motor designed to deliver maximum torque far below redline. Peak torque on the S65 is at 6000 rpms, compared to the N54s 3000 rpms. That makes for a big difference in how it can be used, and why it's a far better track car. But it is also producing far more torque (measured at the ground where it counts) than what N54 owners consider their car's prime performance territory. With that, most N54 owners will start throwing in the "mod" word since they loose the box stock argument. Well, M cars can be modded too, and the best mod is to shorten the gearing even more to increase the torque around 8% more (across every rpm in every gear, something motor mods couldn't dream of). That also doesn't even touch the motor, so no warranty issues. Sure you can risk your warranty and mod the N54 for a greater % change than a NA motor, but just because you dramatically change the peak numbers, that doesn't mean you've really increased acceleration across the whole rpm range near as much, and you're probably overstressing other components such as the gearbox and clutch. Better to buy and M3 than to buy a 135i and mod it. It is not likely any amount of modding will ever bring a 135i up to the complete package of the M3. And you'll never get the return on your investment, nor have the cool V8 sound and the overall solid feel of the car, especially steering feel.
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      02-28-2009, 09:50 AM   #61
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Yeah, boost starts below 2,000 (where not needed) and ends at 5,000 (where needed). The motor looses 100 lb-ft of torque where it needs it most. Therefore, if you like this motor, don't ever think of yourself as a spirited driver. Spirited driver's don't find fun at low rpms. Please get the 135i. You're not the M3 type.
I don't do spirited driving on public roads. You can't get to the fun part with the M3 with day to day driving. I don't have time to go to the track, and to me a M3 is just a waste because I can't even push it to that range even when I am on an on ramp, otherwise I'll be way over the speed limit. Why buy a car where you know you can't play with unless you are on the track, especially if I know I might only get there once a year?
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      02-28-2009, 10:26 AM   #62
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... the tread will go on ...
All started with someone having a go at me!

Anyway, everyone choose their car for their own reason. If my wife allows me to have both, I would bought both cars! (She believe in accumulating houses instead and not cars) Both cars are amazing, but to me, I can have more fun with the 135 than the M3. In a way, I like the 135 because it is a lesser car than the M3, less capable and that's why you can feel it's abilities. Fun does not equal to absolute performance in this scenario.

I love the M car when I was driving it on the track, how it handles, etc... but on the road, it's just way too tame for me. My thoughts would always be "I wish I have time to take it to the track", and that's exactly what I was thinking when I drove it the first time. I was doing the dealer's regular circuit, and the abilities of the M3 was no way near using it up even in 2nd gear.

Can I live with a car that I know it I cannot utilized its abilities - no.
Can I live with a lesser car I can feel more fun to drive on a daily basis - absolutely!

Now, think about it, I had great fun in a mini S vert .
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      02-28-2009, 10:45 AM   #63
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I do think that the 135i is car which was slotted between the non M cars and M cars, you got to remember a couple of things about the 135i:

1- its the only non M BMW that comes with M suspension and Aerodaynamic kit.
2- only Non M BMW that comes with Brembo brakes
3- It comes with and E-diff which other non M BMW don't have.

It still not an M , but its not the same as non Ms
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      02-28-2009, 11:31 AM   #64
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I do think that the 135i is car which was slotted between the non M cars and M cars, you got to remember a couple of things about the 135i:

1- its the only non M BMW that comes with M suspension and Aerodaynamic kit.
2- only Non M BMW that comes with Brembo brakes
3- It comes with and E-diff which other non M BMW don't have.

It still not an M , but its not the same as non Ms
1. You can have M suspension and Aero kit in all series.
2. It's the only BMW with Brembos
3. M has a real LSD

It's for BMW die hards who would love to turn back the clock an own a Rex. lol.
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      02-28-2009, 11:32 AM   #65
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1. You can have M suspension and Aero kit in all series.
2. It's the only BMW with Brembos
3. M has a real LSD

It's for BMW die hards who would love to turn back the clock an own a Rex. lol.
2. are you talking about the BMW Performance Brake Calipers?
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      02-28-2009, 11:39 AM   #66
warmtoes
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He must be because I don't believe our 1's come with Brembo's. They are the only BMW's with 6 piston calipers up front though.
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