How is Obama doing a good job again?

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by txz4

And the truth comes out.... Because your dad payed 50% everyone else should have to, im sorry he got screwed but its no need to screw others.

So taxes are charity now? we arent charitable? interesting.

You know what i thought about when i purchased my headers last month, i worked my ass off to get these headers, and this is gonna be sweet! Keep believing welfare is used for only people that need it, i see these people every day. Im not going to get too far into what i currently do, But it is a regular occurrence for our customers and employees to drop our service or quit working for us because they prefer to collect welfare over working or going to school.

You keep wanting to deny that fact that these percentages turn into an absolute value in dollars collected.

Scotch, your resorting to calling those ho disagree names and disparaging us because we disagree with your flawed reality. It makes no difference to me, though it is telling about you.

P.S. look at every democrat spewing your redistribution of wealth nonsense and how much they donate to charity compared to those on my side. Keep your charity comments to your self. If you agree with the re-distribution of wealth just admit to it. We all already think you want a "from each according to ability to each according to their means" system. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem scotch.

Try to read what I posted, and not what you want to think about me. I never said taxes are charity - I said I don't understand why you keep bringing up the word charity, because taxes are not charity. This has nothing to do with charity or being a giving person, nor is there any redistribution of wealth - drop the right-wing talking points. Nobody is trying to redistribute anything, it's never been a democratic concept - the term is only used by republicans as a put-down.

You also missed my point about my father - it has nothing to do with him, or any retribution (you keep saying I want to get back at everyone, but I've never actually expressed that), it was just illustrating that the top rates are now near their lowest levels ever. So a while back we had rates of 50%, 70%, and 90%; but somehow the current rate is annointed by god, and can't be changed without cries of redistribution.

My point is that taxes are simply a way to run the gov't, they are faceless and non-partial, it's simply a percentage taken from every dollar. The fact that you live in a shithole state where no one wants to work, is not my problem, and has nothing to do with taxes. That's a totally different topic.

You never state what kind of tax system we should have, or acknowledge that I'm simply advocating for the system we've had for 80-some years. I'm not the outcast here.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

My point is that taxes are simply a way to run the gov't, they are faceless and non-partial, it's simply a percentage taken from every dollar.

This doesn't answer a single thing as to what taxes are for.

Money is taken from you whenever you earn it. Where does it go? It can't just disappear, it definitely goes somewhere...

Just curious as to where you think some of your Federal Income Tax dollars go after they come out of your pay. Not really concerned with state and local property taxes. You don't have to give the whole list

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by Templar

This doesn't answer a single thing as to what taxes are for. Just curious as to where you think some of your Federal Income Tax dollars go after they come out of your pay.

I was never asked this question, that's why I didn't answer it. For the purpose of this discussion, it goes to run the gov't. Any more detail would require an entirely new discussion in another thread.

Suffice it to say that, just like local town budgets, your monthly food bill, college costs, and new car prices, the government budget will continue to rise. Is there waste? Yes, always has been, maybe always will be. Are there programs that should perhaps see some cuts? Yes, but these programs have survived umpteen Administrations, both Dem and Repub, and there are people who will fight for every program.

I've accepted our version of capitalism; I don't know why all of you are proposing radical changes that aren't gonna happen. Sort of like Ron Paul - some good ideas, some nutty ideas, but this country only allows miniscule changes at any time, so most of his plans aren't gonna fly, no matter how many times he runs.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

I was never asked this question, that's why I didn't answer it. For the purpose of this discussion, it goes to run the gov't. Any more detail would require an entirely new discussion in another thread.

Suffice it to say that, just like local town budgets, your monthly food bill, college costs, and new car prices, the government budget will continue to rise. Is there waste? Yes, always has been, maybe always will be. Are there programs that should perhaps see some cuts? Yes, but these programs have survived umpteen Administrations, both Dem and Repub, and there are people who will fight for every program.

I've accepted our version of capitalism; I don't know why all of you are proposing radical changes that aren't gonna happen. Sort of like Ron Paul - some good ideas, some nutty ideas, but this country only allows miniscule changes at any time, so most of his plans aren't gonna fly, no matter how many times he runs.

Don't lump me in that crowd. Never said any of that.

Got the answer I expected though. Thanks.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Scotch, the world is global now; there is no way we will ever get back to a 90% marginal tax rate for the uber-wealthy. There are many financially-compelling choices now which did not exist when your father paid 50%. If rates even began to approach 50% today, then the vast majority of the wealthy would take what is not already outside the country, and move it there pronto. Those options didnt exist even 10 years ago, at least not to the extent they do today.

There's no undoing that now, especially since captains of industry have seen what huge savings can be had with no loss of quality (yes, a Fusion assembled in Mexico has better quality ratings than an American-assembled equivalent of a decade ago).

What is left of the jobs infrastructure in the US today will shrivel up faster than you can say outsourcing, if you give then any reason to feel their money is being re-distributed unfairly.

Yes there are rare exceptions like Mr. Buffet, but he does not represent the typical position of rich people like him, especially those who are self-made and have busted their ass for decades to get there. Those are the ones who are most militant about the fruits of their labor going to the lazy. You can argue all you want that they are "wrong" for feeling that way, it wont matter. They will make choices based on their opinions, not yours. Their choices will not favor employees based here. Left-wing ranting has not changed their perceptions so far, so it's illogical to assume that will suddenly change now. Given their viewpoint, the only rational response is to not give them any more reason to shift economic opportunity away.

It is always in your best interest to behave according to how the world IS, not how you think the world should be.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Just one example of many :
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...o-owner-wynn/1

The point is, it doesnt matter if Steve is right or wrong, he will make decisions based on what he believes. His decisions affect the jobs of literally thousands of people directly, and many thousands more indirectly.

If you think you can change Steve Wynn's mind, good luck with that. Until you can manage that feat, then it's sheer folly to act as if his mind has already changed, and start jacking up his tax rate, thinking he wont say "screw it, I'm outta here".

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Scotch, the world is global now; there is no way we will ever get back to a 90% marginal tax rate for the uber-wealthy. There are many financially-compelling choices now which did not exist when your father paid 50%. If rates even began to approach 50% today, then the vast majority of the wealthy would take what is not already outside the country, and move it there pronto. Those options didnt exist even 10 years ago, at least not to the extent they do today.

There's no undoing that now, especially since captains of industry have seen what huge savings can be had with no loss of quality (yes, a Fusion assembled in Mexico has better quality ratings than an American-assembled equivalent of a decade ago).

What is left of the jobs infrastructure in the US today will shrivel up faster than you can say outsourcing, if you give then any reason to feel their money is being re-distributed unfairly.

Yes there are rare exceptions like Mr. Buffet, but he does not represent the typical position of rich people like him, especially those who are self-made and have busted their ass for decades to get there. Those are the ones who are most militant about the fruits of their labor going to the lazy. You can argue all you want that they are "wrong" for feeling that way, it wont matter. They will make choices based on their opinions, not yours. Their choices will not favor employees based here. Left-wing ranting has not changed their perceptions so far, so it's illogical to assume that will suddenly change now. Given their viewpoint, the only rational response is to not give them any more reason to shift economic opportunity away.

It is always in your best interest to behave according to how the world IS, not how you think the world should be.

Well at least you gave an answer that's better than "everyone around me is on welfare". I wonder why nobody else has brought up this point? Although it seems like many in this forum want their income taxes to be capped, like the FICA contribution.

While we're on this topic, everyone seems to complain about the high corporate tax rate, but why hasn't any administration (from either side) done something about it?

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

While we're on this topic, everyone seems to complain about the high corporate tax rate, but why hasn't any administration (from either side) done something about it?

because its easier to lobby for a loophole for your company and industry...which is why people like me advocate for blowing up the entire tax code...the government should not get to pick winners and loosers...

remember its not a R v D thing....its a ruling class v ruled class thing...and every last one of us in in the latter...the ruling class likes it when we keep our eyes off of them and onto each other instead...

[txz4]

Originally Posted by ideliver

because its easier to lobby for a loophole for your company and industry...which is why people like me advocate for blowing up the entire tax code...the government should not get to pick winners and loosers...

remember its not a R v D thing....its a ruling class v ruled class thing...and every last one of us in in the latter...the ruling class likes it when we keep our eyes off of them and onto each other instead...

According to every lib you ARE the rulling class!

Btw scotch, my states a "shithole?" If only you knew, just because their are some that abuse the system doesn't mean all do, dont be a child and assume something so stupid just for an easy put down. I brought up those on welfare to bring some reality your way, trust me, its not isolated to Texas. Texas has one of the fastest growing and strongest economies in the states. I see more and more new sports cars, office buildings, and high end housing every day. Im proud my state doesn't shit on its inhabitants by crippling local business at the rate of many northern states. They say they want to help, and pass policies that make these fools believe they are, without realizing the consequences of their decisions, making them worse off than before. Read "brave new world" or "ape and essence" to get an idea of what im speaking of.

You say one thing and when i point it out, you state thats not what you meant. Refine your thoughts or dont post them if your going to post useless information.

I never brought up "charity", you did. I simply disagreed. Charity isnt at the end of the proverbial gun should be simple enough for you to understand. You wanted to preach fairness, yet you wont logicaly think about how fair your ideas are. Your prejudice or just a moron. One and/or the other, though i have a feeling both apply in your case. Deal with the fact that your ideas of "fairness" have consequences.

The problem with you and many many others is you dont understand, The means dont justify the ends... Many on my side, your side and every side in between dont realize this.


Since your not getting it Scotch i feel i need to spell it out. If you are taking more from the wealthy and less if any from everyone else, putting it in the common pool/ giving back out to the poor you are actively REDISTRIBUTING WEALTH. Its not hard to get for most, though you clearly are having a tough time.

[cmk227]

Great Article. Wanted to share.

When a private sector CEO lies to investors, it’s called fraud. You can go to prison for manipulating the facts. Yet President Obama and his leftist cabal in Congress lie, omit and manipulate the facts about taxes every day.

Let’s examine the bold faced lies of Obama and the left, who try to justify tax increases on "the rich" on a daily basis:

First, Obama quotes the dollars earned by the top 1% of income earners to prove that “the rich” are making too much and being taxed too little. That’s sleight of hand.

The president is lumping billionaires with yachts and private planes into the same boat with small business owners like myself. Within that top 1% are a few billionaire titans like Warren Buffett, hedge fund managers who earn $500 million per year, Wall Street tycoons who earn $100 million per year just in stock options, all mixed in with small business owners like me.

How can you use billion dollar stock gains, or $100 million hedge fund incomes, or $20 million Wall Street bonuses, to justify raising taxes on a small businessman who makes $250,000 to $500,000 per year by working 16 hours a day?

By courageously risking their own money, small business owners create over 70% of the new jobs in the U.S. economy.

President Obama is comparing these individuals to billionaires who share the same tax bracket. Mr. Obama claims that everyone in the top 1% tax bracket is making too much, and paying too little in taxes.

The president is playing a bait and switch shell game. Some might even go so far as to call that kind of manipulation tax fraud.

Second, Mr. Obama claims tax rates are currently among the lowest in history. Once again the president is purposely omitting the full picture.

Separate from federal income tax rates, U.S. taxpayers now pay the highest FICA and Medicare tax rates ever; the highest state, local and property taxes ever; the highest sales taxes ever; and the second highest business income taxes in the industrialized world.

Add it all up, and small business owners like myself are overburdened like never before in history. So we are clearly being deceived. Again, some might call that tax fraud.

Third, Obama is comparing apples to oranges when he compares tax rates. Rates are lower today than in the past because many valuable tax deductions were eliminated. And we now face caps, phase-outs, and the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax.

Therefore quoting higher rates is a distortion of the truth. A tax rate of 70% from decades ago might actually be lower than today's rates once you include these factors.

As Ronald Reagan would say, “There you go misrepresenting, again, President Obama.”

Fourth, Obama constantly reports that tax rates were once much higher. Another distortion.

It is true that FDR raised the top rate in 1935 to 79%. But what Mr. Obama and his team doesn’t tell us is that it only applied to someone making the equivalent of $76,000,000 per year.

Only one man in the entire United States of America paid a penny at that rate in 1935: John D. Rockefeller.

Mr. Obama wants much higher taxes for millions of small business owners making $250,000 and above.

But he quotes "robber baron” rates to sell his bait and switch scheme. In the private sector you face civil or criminal charges for misleading investors like that.

President Obama also purposely leaves out a very important fact -- that only in the last 30 years have we moved away from a cash economy.

Tax rates at 70% or higher didn’t matter prior to 1980 because the whole country operated with an underground (cash) economy. Most small businesses earned unreported cash.

Does anyone- including President Obama -- believe that restaurant owners, bar owners, or retailers paid huge taxes on their cash incomes 30 years ago?

Today we have a computerized economy based on credit cards. Virtually every dollar that every business takes in is tracked and reported. Today, banks report to government all suspicious or big ticket deposits. Virtually every dollar in the U.S. economy is tracked and taxed. So the rate of taxes is immaterial -- all of us are paying far more in taxes than ever before. To not report that difference is deceptive. Some might call that tax fraud.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...#ixzz1mLGP4rqt

[ideliver]

Spend baby spend

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by txz4

I never brought up "charity", you did.

Wrong. Why don't you show me?

Originally Posted by txz4

Your prejudice or just a moron. One and/or the other, though i have a feeling both apply in your case.... Its not hard to get for most, though you clearly are having a tough time.

Everyone should be as nice of a guy as you.

Originally Posted by txz4

If you are taking more from the wealthy and less if any from everyone else, putting it in the common pool/ giving back out to the poor you are actively REDISTRIBUTING WEALTH.

Yeah, because that's all our tax dollars go to - right to the poor. None of it goes to defense, or medicaire, or infrastructure, or paying John Boehner's salary; it just all goes to the poor. Boy, thanks for clearing that up! So according to you, if anyone contributes more in tax dollars than anyone else, that's redistributing wealth, so basically every country in the world is conspiring to do this; wow!

OK, so perhaps a solution is to have everyone pay the same amount in tax dollars. First, we'll figure out how much the lowest-earning self-supporting person can contribute. So someone making $25K/yr can probably handle 15% in federal taxes, which is $3,750 (keep in mind they'll have FICA, state tax, and property tax to pay too). That means that every working US citizen will contribute $3,750 in federal taxes. Fair enough? I'm so glad we could resolve this, I feel much better now.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by cmk227

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...#ixzz1mLGP4rqt

Good find! It's from Fox News, so it's gotta be Fair & Balanced, right?

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by ideliver

Spend baby spend

Attachment 644511

Attachment 644512

Uh, isn't that just the definition of a recession? Does this look any different than the other recessions we've been in?

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Uh, isn't that just the definition of a recession? Does this look any different than the other recessions we've been in?

ummm...try again

[txz4]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Wrong. Why don't you show me?
Everyone should be as nice of a guy as you.
Yeah, because that's all our tax dollars go to - right to the poor. None of it goes to defense, or medicaire, or infrastructure, or paying John Boehner's salary; it just all goes to the poor. Boy, thanks for clearing that up! So according to you, if anyone contributes more in tax dollars than anyone else, that's redistributing wealth, so basically every country in the world is conspiring to do this; wow!

OK, so perhaps a solution is to have everyone pay the same amount in tax dollars. First, we'll figure out how much the lowest-earning self-supporting person can contribute. So someone making $25K/yr can probably handle 15% in federal taxes, which is $3,750 (keep in mind they'll have FICA, state tax, and property tax to pay too). That means that every working US citizen will contribute $3,750 in federal taxes. Fair enough? I'm so glad we could resolve this, I feel much better now.

Dont be glib you moron. YOU need to read the thread again, the first mention of the word "Charity" was you bitching about me speaking about it, which for some reason is either omitted from the thread, or most likely never happened.

Secondly, i said that the wealth GOES INTO THE COMMON POOL, you even quoted it.

And third, i never had issue with the rich paying more than the poor in absolute dollars and never said i did. The problem i do have is THE FURTHER REDISTRIBUTION that the gov and fools like you are proposing. I assumed you would at least understand that, alas, it was my stupidity that you would be able to put 1 and 1 together. Im truly surprised you can even operate a six speed....

You blatantly saying whatever you will without letting the truth get in the way may work for your parties constituents but it still doesn't work for those of us capable of any logical thought. Try again scotch.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by txz4

Dont be glib you moron..... fools like you... it was my stupidity that you would be able to put 1 and 1 together. Im truly surprised you can even operate a six speed.... You blatantly saying whatever you will without letting the truth get in the way may work for your parties constituents but it still doesn't work for those of us capable of any logical thought.

So I make a calm, inoffensive post, and this is what I get in return - total dickness. What is your problem? Can't you have a discussion without blowing a gasket?

Originally Posted by txz4

the first mention of the word "Charity" was you bitching about me speaking about it, which for some reason is either omitted from the thread, or most likely never happened.

You acknowledge that I was responding to a earlier post (which I was), but then you realize that it makes me seem sane, so you then had to contradict yourself.

Originally Posted by txz4

i never had issue with the rich paying more than the poor in absolute dollars and never said i did. The problem i do have is THE FURTHER REDISTRIBUTION.

Really? That's not what everyone else is saying. What about the guy going over the bridge with his boss? The story was about how much each paid, not tax rates. And why is the current top rate OK, but a higher rate makes you freak out? Did GW Bush get a sign from god as to what the exact rate should be?

How bout you try answering my questions for a change, without the tourettes?

[txz4]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

So I make a calm, inoffensive post, and this is what I get in return - total dickness. What is your problem? Can't you have a discussion without blowing a gasket?
You acknowledge that I was responding to a earlier post (which I was), but then you realize that it makes me seem sane, so you then had to contradict yourself.
Really? That's not what everyone else is saying. What about the guy going over the bridge with his boss? The story was about how much each paid, not tax rates. And why is the current top rate OK, but a higher rate makes you freak out? Did GW Bush get a sign from god as to what the exact rate should be?

How bout you try answering my questions for a change, without the tourettes?

Are you kidding me, you really are a prick. You have done nothing but name call and bash, and when i finally say something mildly offensive you lose it. Dont use it to change the subject of you still being completely unable to come up with a logical response to anything anyone has said. How could you miss literally everything? seriously, im impressed by your foolishness. You say i contradict myself bcause you dont even understand im making fun of your point! i said something existed and then went further saying it disappeared ...BECAUSE IT NEVER EXISTED. good god man, are you even trying to keep up.

Why do you even try and post responses anymore? really, im just shocked how you could have so little comprehension of anything. Let me spell everything out for you as simply as possible.

The tax burden on the wealthy as TOO HIGH compared to how abused the system is by others. As outlined in the pie chart with numbers from the IRS, not data from a 2007 CBO projection used in a non-objective article. Wealthy should pay more in absolute dollars than the poor absolutely but the current tax system is hugely flawed and in need of simplification. The only way we can help the poor is to FORCE them into helping themselves. If they want to work we can work on helping them. This system is hugely abused by the poor based on my personal experience. This idea that further helping the people of this country is a BAD IDEA. Obama-care will cause a 60 people to be out of a job guaranteed, ask me how i know. Further more ive spoken with my accountant and we arent the only ones, according to her, the the restaurant and many other service industries WILL NOT make it. It will leave only the smallest competitors living.

this is just one example of the many. right now the best course of action is to allow business to do what they do...Make money, if a business is profitable it puts that business in a position to expand and hire more employees and more money for current employees. Again, this isnt based on ideas, this is based on experience and reality.

And to further address your post above. I NEVER said i was okay with the current tax rates, currently they are overly redistributive in nature and only going further in the wrong direction, thus harming the economy further. Ive always had a logical and correct answer to EVERYTHING you have said, the evidence is above, though im sure you wont let that get in the way of declaring it further.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Can we get to the point without all your bullshit? What is your opinion of the graduated tax system? Is it OK that lower income people pay lower rates, because they have little disposable income? Is it OK that middle income people pay a higher rate, and that high income people pay yet a higher rate? If not, why? However, if this is OK with you, then at what point is it fair to stop progressing the graduated rate, and why?

Lets see if you're capable of answering questions, without resorting to insults and rage.

[xbook]

One wonders how the hell people were able to make money in the 1990s. What with all them high taxes that the government was trying to kill business with. Those must have been terrible years, I bet nobody was making any money then because of those horrible 35% taxes they had to pay. Ohh boo hoo...

[Templar]

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by xbook

One wonders how the hell people were able to make money in the 1990s. What with all them high taxes that the government was trying to kill business with. Those must have been terrible years, I bet nobody was making any money then because of those horrible 35% taxes they had to pay. Ohh boo hoo...

Bout time you chimed-in. I'm being shit-on for supporting the proven, logical path that has been successful during boom times, as you say.