[KevRyd]

I think you are mistaking Noise for feel. If you don't know what DHP is well then.......?

Do you even know my history or how many or the different types of car I drive? I don't need to tell people how many 3's I've owned or driven.

I'm glad to hear the car is not good enough for you but its perfect for the wife, yeah ok

Kevin

Originally Posted by PKizzle

Familiarity through model generations adds nothing to one's intelligence, but it certainly makes you more perceptive of a change from certain traits that you get accustomed to over the years. My DD has been a 3 series for the last 14 years and I constantly jump between my e36 and my 335is. While the e92 feels nowhere as raw as the e36, there is a certain directness in how the car communicates that is evident in both. I did not get this same feel from the F30. There was a bit of aloofness, which to me is a deviation from what has traditionally defined a BMW 3 series. How would you recognize this if you never knew what a 3 was supposed to be like by virtue of having owned one for any length of time?

As for dhp, I mentioned that I had the car in the 'sport' mode most of the time? Is dhp something else? If so, then I may have missed it and I apologize. While the sport button tightened things up considerably, it did not add much in the way of feedback. The tires and steering were still not 'talking' to me.

What agenda, like I said my wife loved the car and we may end up getting one for her. And I thought I said it was a great car, just not what I've been accustomed to from a 3 series. But that does mean you cannot discuss the merits and demerits of a model evolution on a BMW forum.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by PKizzle

Familiarity through model generations adds nothing to one's intelligence, but it certainly makes you more perceptive of a change from certain traits that you get accustomed to over the years. My DD has been a 3 series for the last 14 years and I constantly jump between my e36 and my 335is. While the e92 feels nowhere as raw as the e36, there is a certain directness in how the car communicates that is evident in both. I did not get this same feel from the F30. There was a bit of aloofness, which to me is a deviation from what has traditionally defined a BMW 3 series. How would you recognize this if you never knew what a 3 was supposed to be like by virtue of having owned one for any length of time?

As for dhp, I mentioned that I had the car in the 'sport' mode most of the time? Is dhp something else? If so, then I may have missed it and I apologize. While the sport button tightened things up considerably, it did not add much in the way of feedback. The tires and steering were still not 'talking' to me.

What agenda, like I said my wife loved the car and we may end up getting one for her. And I thought I said it was a great car, just not what I've been accustomed to from a 3 series. But that does mean you cannot discuss the merits and demerits of a model evolution on a BMW forum.

You do realize that the 335is was beaten by the F30 at VIR right. This was an F30 with no DHP, msport and PPK. Once you dial those into the F30 or F32 the gap between the two should widen.

[PKizzle]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

I think you are mistaking Noise for feel. If you don't know what DHP is well then.......?

Do you even know my history or how many or the different types of car I drive? I don't need to tell people how many 3's I've owned or driven.

I'm glad to hear the car is not good enough for you but its perfect for the wife, yeah ok

Kevin

Didn't mean to convey it as not being 'good enough' for me, just that it wasn't what I've been used to in a 3 series and that took me by surprise. Having said that, here's what I liked about it,

1. The motor! Pulls significantly harder than the N52. I had to double check to make sure it was a 328 and not a 335. And the damn thing was giving close to 30 mpg, at the same time.
2. The technology. The HUD, Nav screen options etc were amazing.
3. The interior felt like a whole other class of car. Much more upscale.
4. The aggressive front-end esp with the M sport option.
5. In the right color and options, the car looks so much more modern. Makes the e90 look dated and tired by comparison.

Realize this is a beaten subject and I will stop here.

[PKizzle]

Originally Posted by 300hp

You do realize that the 335is was beaten by the F30 at VIR right. This was an F30 with no DHP, msport and PPK. Once you dial those into the F30 or F32 the gap between the two should widen.

Could be a number of factors - track temp, driver etc, that could have influenced it. They hated the DCT in the 335is and felt the car would have been faster without it. Also keep in mind that an older e92 335 that they tested a few years ago was a good 2+ plus seconds quicker than both - 3.10 something. Too much variability here.

[Jamesons Viggen]

It's been fun watching this from the sidelines.

I was asked to not keep going on and on with the same people-round in circles.

My exit result-people still going on and on in circles.

[KevRyd]

Guilty as charged

I said you where to knowledgable to dwell here, not me!

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

It's been fun watching this from the sidelines.

I was asked to not keep going on and on with the same people-round in circles.

My exit result-people still going on and on in circles.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Thanks Kevin for keeping the discussion intelligent and calling it like we all see it

Are you seriously suggesting that insulting those that disagree with you by questioning their intelligence, and accusing them of having "stupid agenda" and making "stupid argument" is "keeping the discussion intelligent"?

I mean, some of you F30 guys are really getting cultish at this point. I can understand some annoyance at what you perceive to be unfair criticisms aimed at your recent significant purchase, but let's not try to redefine the meaning of civil and intelligent discourse.

I have to wonder just what "stupid agenda" that all these magazines have to bitch about the F30, that they didn't have when the E90 came along. If all the negative reviews in no way reflect on the F30, and only betray some sinister agenda by these publications, then what exactly is that agenda and why didn't they have the same agenda 7 years ago? Or in fact, is any review about any car in any way connected to the reality in this world view? Or is everything driven by one or other "stupid agenda"? Come on guys, you can do better than this.

The difficulty you guys have in admitting a single flaw in an otherwise well designed car, so that you can claim that your car is beyond reproach, is just mind boggling.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

some of you F30 guys are really getting cultish at this point

E90 guys in an F30 forum trying desperately to prove their car is better? Cultish much?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by dinonz

E90 guys in an F30 forum trying desperately to prove their car is better? Cultish much?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Point me to my post where I said the E90 was a better car than the F30.

I have no problem admitting that the E90 has a number of flaws. I didn't buy my car because I thought it was the Platonic idea of a perfect car. And I do not get all butt hurt and start hurling insults when someone says my lowly 328i has an uninspiring interior, or choppy low speed ride, or cramped back seat, or mediocre reliability record.

And it wouldn't offend me any more even if you say those things on the E90 board. I don't know if you periodically urinate on the F30 forum, but I am not huge on the territorial behavior. Also, this is the only thread dealing with this particular review, which happens to be about the E90 as well as the F30, and it happens to be posted here. So I don't see a problem with me posting here, although this would be only my third or fourth post in this long-ass thread.

If you have to defend your purchase by conjuring up some sinister motive behind what has become a pretty much consensus view on what is and isn't so great about your car, and try to insult and shout down those that disagree with you, then I say that's getting cultish.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

Point me to my post where I said the E90 was a better car than the F30.

I have no problem admitting that the E90 has a number of flaws. I didn't buy my car because I thought it was the Platonic idea of a perfect car. And I do not get all butt hurt and start hurling insults when someone says my lowly 328i has an uninspiring interior, or choppy low speed ride, or cramped back seat, or mediocre reliability record.

And it wouldn't offend me any more even if you say those things on the E90 board. I don't know if you periodically urinate on the F30 forum, but I am not huge on the territorial behavior. Also, this is the only thread dealing with this particular review, which happens to be about the E90 as well as the F30, and it happens to be posted here. So I don't see a problem with me posting here, although this would be only my third or fourth post in this long-ass thread.

If you have to defend your purchase by conjuring up some sinister motive behind what has become a pretty much consensus view on what is and isn't so great about your car, and try to insult and shout down those that disagree with you, then I say that's getting cultish.

Point me to where I said it was you. It's a continual theme with the E90 people - that's why they're in an F30 forum beating their chests because 1 article "defended" their decision not to upgrade. If not, here's a helpful link:

http://www.e90post.com

I believe someone even s******ed earlier that the F30 crowd were 8 days late in posting this, and that it was posted in the E90 forums earlier. Or if you really wanted to discuss it without this cultish behaviour, re-post it to your E90 forums. It's that easy.

I'm not territorial, and I'll ignore your urination comments as immature. I don't have to defend my purchase to anyone. I personally feel that my F30 is superior to my old E90 in every way possible, even though I was happy with my E90 till I had the chance to get the F30. I don't have to defend that statement in any way because it's beyond question.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

Point me to my post where I said the E90 was a better car than the F30.

I have no problem admitting that the E90 has a number of flaws. I didn't buy my car because I thought it was the Platonic idea of a perfect car. And I do not get all butt hurt and start hurling insults when someone says my lowly 328i has an uninspiring interior, or choppy low speed ride, or cramped back seat, or mediocre reliability record.

And it wouldn't offend me any more even if you say those things on the E90 board. I don't know if you periodically urinate on the F30 forum, but I am not huge on the territorial behavior. Also, this is the only thread dealing with this particular review, which happens to be about the E90 as well as the F30, and it happens to be posted here. So I don't see a problem with me posting here, although this would be only my third or fourth post in this long-ass thread.

If you have to defend your purchase by conjuring up some sinister motive behind what has become a pretty much consensus view on what is and isn't so great about your car, and try to insult and shout down those that disagree with you, then I say that's getting cultish.

Sorry - I was wrong. We were 2 days late.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860602

There you go - your own thread in your own forum where you won't have to put up with us F30 owners and you can go have a great time!!

See ya!

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Sorry - I was wrong. We were 2 days late.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860602

There you go - your own thread in your own forum where you won't have to put up with us F30 owners and you can go have a great time!!

See ya!

Nope - 7 days late

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858950

You had TWO threads in your own forum, yet still had to find your way here? Excuse me if I don't believe your "innocence"

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Guilty as charged

I said you where to knowledgable to dwell here, not me!

Kevin

I have ignored this guy on this forum for a few pages now.

So what does he do?

He goes to the other F30 forum which is much quieter, bumps the SAME THREAD which no one had replied to in a week and feels the need to mention me.

Creepy+Trolling=FAIL.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I agree with this article.

This whole trend of BMW making soft core cars with less communicative steering feel/feedback is just sad.

I am not digging the new F30's. I have driven the Base F30's both 328i and 335i and find them less engaging and fun to drive then the Base versions of E9x 328i/335i.

Also, I am not shocked to see JamesonViggeon still arguing and defending F30 to no end. Let me guess you are bored while waiting for meetings.

LOL........I have to give it to you that at least you have the dedication to defend your beloved F30 at all cost.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Point me to where I said it was you. It's a continual theme with the E90 people - that's why they're in an F30 forum beating their chests because 1 article "defended" their decision not to upgrade. If not, here's a helpful link:

http://www.e90post.com

I believe someone even s******ed earlier that the F30 crowd were 8 days late in posting this, and that it was posted in the E90 forums earlier. Or if you really wanted to discuss it without this cultish behaviour, re-post it to your E90 forums. It's that easy.

I'm not territorial, and I'll ignore your urination comments as immature. I don't have to defend my purchase to anyone. I personally feel that my F30 is superior to my old E90 in every way possible, even though I was happy with my E90 till I had the chance to get the F30. I don't have to defend that statement in any way because it's beyond question.

My original post was not directed at you in particular. In turn, you quoted my post directly to criticize the "E90 people". It is the choice you made to take my comment as directed at you and defend those that I was responding to. On the other hand, I personally see no reason to defend the "E90 people" that apparently annoy you so much.

And BTW, if making three posts in a row, each one with a link to e90post, to tell me to go back there is not a territorial behavior, then what is it? Are you just being really really helpful?

But I concede that I did not know these other threads existed, I simply followed the link from the news page, which links to this thread. So if your goal is to ensure that "E90 people" like me don't come over here, you may want to talk to the site administrators and ask them to not put F30 related threads on the front page.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

My original post was not directed at you in particular. In turn, you quoted my post directly to criticize the "E90 people". It is the choice you made to take my comment as directed at you and defend those that I was responding to. On the other hand, I personally see no reason to defend the "E90 people" that apparently annoy you so much.

And BTW, if making three posts in a row, each one with a link to e90post, to tell me to go back there is not a territorial behavior, then what is it? Are you just being really really helpful?

But I concede that I did not know these other threads existed, I simply followed the link from the news page, which links to this thread. So if your goal is to ensure that "E90 people" like me don't come over here, you may want to talk to the site administrators and ask them to not put F30 related threads on the front page.

My original comment wasn't directed at you either, it was just showing the similarities between your accusations of the F30 folks, and the behavior of the E90 folks.

Yes - I was trying to be helpful. You wanted to comment on this article, but said it was only in here - was just giving you 2 other options

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by dinonz

My original comment wasn't directed at you either, it was just showing the similarities between your accusations of the F30 folks, and the behavior of the E90 folks.

Yes - I was trying to be helpful. You wanted to comment on this article, but said it was only in here - was just giving you 2 other options

Fair enough. I know I can be quite snarky, so there's that too. But I do think that this E90 vs F30 discussion is really getting out of hand. Of course it's normal to have heated discussions on internet forums, but I mean, we shouldn't have to insult people and question their motives. Maybe it's because I'm not used to the BMW scene, but I really don't understand why people (not just F30 owners, of course, but a few vocal ones all over the forum) have to be so defensive about their cars down to every little detail. Isn't it more normal for a car forum to have people openly talk about negative things about their cars as much as the positives, with the implied assumption that we all still love our cars? There are so many threads with no content other than to say how awesome someone's new BMW is and how much better it is compared to everything else, and that's just weird to me.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

Fair enough. I know I can be quite snarky, so there's that too. But I do think that this E90 vs F30 discussion is really getting out of hand. Of course it's normal to have heated discussions on internet forums, but I mean, we shouldn't have to insult people and question their motives. Maybe it's because I'm not used to the BMW scene, but I really don't understand why people (not just F30 owners, of course, but a few vocal ones all over the forum) have to be so defensive about their cars down to every little detail. Isn't it more normal for a car forum to have people openly talk about negative things about their cars as much as the positives, with the implied assumption that we all still love our cars? There are so many threads with no content other than to say how awesome someone's new BMW is and how much better it is compared to everything else, and that's just weird to me.

Much of this thread has been "ha ha they said mines better than yours", accompanied by the "you're only defending it because you bought one" etc. Seems many E90 owners desperately wanted to justify not upgrading to the F30 (or not being able to) by claiming "mines better than yours and you paid a lot of money for an inferior car".

If you choose not to upgrade, good for you. I chose to upgrade, because I prefer the F30, and I could order one with the options I wanted. But don't give me that crap that the we "closed our eyes and paid a lot of money for a crap car just because its the latest model". We didn't. We made our purchase decision because we felt it was a better car, and still do. End of story.

Nothing wrong with posting faults about your car (I did at length in this thread in answer to someone else) but as an owner of a Sport Line with DHP, lack of steering feel is not a fault I would level at the car - given I drive 99% in Sport or Sport+, and only use Comfort/ECO when transporting patients.

People went on about the "cheap plastics on the dashboard". Until that time, I'd not fondled the dashboard to see how cheap or hard the plastics are. Never felt the need. But they don't look any cheaper than my E90 did. Switchgear doesn't feel any better or worse, except that the F30 has touch sensitive switches for additional functionality.

The way I see it, BMW have re-aligned their models to suit a wider audience. I think they recognize that many people do in fact buy the car for the badge, and I think the light steering and base suspension is for them. The Sport/M Sport Lines/DHP allow the more passionate drivers to tailor the car to their preferences.

BMW has been considered the most powerful brand in the world, and they're not about to destroy that. But they also recognize that sticking doggedly to one "formula" won't work forever. They're into hybrids and pure electric now. I think they acknowledge that to appeal to a broader audience they needed to soften the car - my uncle once commented that my 2.0 Z3 was heavier to drive than his Holden Commodore V8 (Pontiac G8 for the American market, an Opel in Europe) - even the accelerator was heavy! I think they have softened it, and broadened the options (previously it was "Sport Package" or nothing?) to allow for the needs of their more "enthusiast" market.

My F30 compared to my E90 is bigger (doesn't feel it to drive though, but there's more rear room for my 6' passengers), lighter, faster, more comfortable, has more technology (I'm a geek) and drives better. But having said that, comparing a E90 328i to an F30 335i with DHP and 20" Pirelli P-Zero's is unfair.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Much of this thread has been "ha ha they said mines better than yours", accompanied by the "you're only defending it because you bought one" etc. Seems many E90 owners desperately wanted to justify not upgrading to the F30 (or not being able to) by claiming "mines better than yours and you paid a lot of money for an inferior car".

If you choose not to upgrade, good for you. I chose to upgrade, because I prefer the F30, and I could order one with the options I wanted. But don't give me that crap that the we "closed our eyes and paid a lot of money for a crap car just because its the latest model". We didn't. We made our purchase decision because we felt it was a better car, and still do. End of story.

Nothing wrong with posting faults about your car (I did at length in this thread in answer to someone else) but as an owner of a Sport Line with DHP, lack of steering feel is not a fault I would level at the car - given I drive 99% in Sport or Sport+, and only use Comfort/ECO when transporting patients.

People went on about the "cheap plastics on the dashboard". Until that time, I'd not fondled the dashboard to see how cheap or hard the plastics are. Never felt the need. But they don't look any cheaper than my E90 did. Switchgear doesn't feel any better or worse, except that the F30 has touch sensitive switches for additional functionality.

The way I see it, BMW have re-aligned their models to suit a wider audience. I think they recognize that many people do in fact buy the car for the badge, and I think the light steering and base suspension is for them. The Sport/M Sport Lines/DHP allow the more passionate drivers to tailor the car to their preferences.

BMW has been considered the most powerful brand in the world, and they're not about to destroy that. But they also recognize that sticking doggedly to one "formula" won't work forever. They're into hybrids and pure electric now. I think they acknowledge that to appeal to a broader audience they needed to soften the car - my uncle once commented that my 2.0 Z3 was heavier to drive than his Holden Commodore V8 (Pontiac G8 for the American market, an Opel in Europe) - even the accelerator was heavy! I think they have softened it, and broadened the options (previously it was "Sport Package" or nothing?) to allow for the needs of their more "enthusiast" market.

My F30 compared to my E90 is bigger (doesn't feel it to drive though, but there's more rear room for my 6' passengers), lighter, faster, more comfortable, has more technology (I'm a geek) and drives better. But having said that, comparing a E90 328i to an F30 335i with DHP and 20" Pirelli P-Zero's is unfair.

There is nothing I disagree with you there. I have never accused any F30 owner of blindly chasing the latest, but if some others have, that's very distasteful. I don't doubt that people are not careless when spending $50~60K on what is essentially a compact sedan. Of course you bought it because you liked it. But conversely, I don't think it's fair to lump all E90 owners into one category and accuse us of criticizing the F30 purely out of jealousy. (I think you are agreeing with me on this point.)

As many have pointed out, every new generation of the 3er brought about some level of criticism from the previous gen owners. But I think it is also true that this time around there is an unusual amount of criticism targeted at the fun-to-drive factor of the new car. I'm not making this up, I remember very well when the E90 came out, and of course many E46 owners complained, but there really wasn't that much criticism against the way the E90 drove. (Only some from ZHP owners, which, admittedly, was a fantastic car.) And such criticism was virtually absent from any major publications at the time. So while it's fine for anyone to not agree with this particular criticism, I don't see how one can act as if there is absolutely no substance to this issue, and all these people have some hidden agenda. (Not you, but others)

While I am at it, let me explain what I like the least about this new direction by BMW that you described. It isn't so much that the F30 is a bad car, far from it, but it's the overall direction that BMW is heading to with all the F-series cars, and why I think that's happening. One word: China. China is projected to become the biggest market for BMW by next year, and I think this new direction of BMW getting more luxury oriented, which almost always reduces the driver engagement, is closely related to that.

China is a very interesting case, in that it has an enormous influence on the market already, and yet it is still a developing country. Of course we've always had developing countries in the world, but until the rise of China, none of them had any real influence on the design of products that were sold in the first world countries, especially at the upper end of the spectrum. But now things are different. The world's top makers are all doing their best to cater to the Chinese taste, and in case of automobile industry where the economy of scale is paramount, that effort is actually affecting the kind of cars that are offered in the US as well, as basically the same products are sold in both countries.

Sometimes this is a good thing, but not always, as China still has the taste of a developing country. Now, I happened to have been raised in a developing country myself, and as much as I respect and cheer for any country that is getting itself out of poverty (and that's of course the most important thing), I have a rather dim view of the "taste" prevalent in such countries. It tends to be ostentatious and status conscious, with very little playfulness or joy. So we now have long wheelbase 3 series, so that some hotshot in China can be driven in. (Think about it. Making the car chauffeur-able must have been a design factor for the F30, however minimal that requirement must have been.) The 5 series is basically a 7 series now, and no longer the sportiest entry in the class. The new 1 series is also softer than the first gen, although I'm hoping that the 2er would be better.

All is well in Munich though, since they are doing extremely well not just in China but also in the US. So for now, it seems like they are catching two birds with one stone. But I think there is a danger that BMW could go down this road too far, and lose the core fans in the west. The recent criticism from C&D, which used to be accused of being in BMW's pocket, has been maybe overly harsh, but I think it's their way of sounding the alarm, that the sacred place BMW had for many US enthusiasts is not a guaranteed spot. We'll see what happens in the next generation, but the reason that I keep saying they should make the car less soft at LCI is because I'd like to see some sign that the guys at Munich understand this problem, rather than simply being smitten by the rising sales in China.

[KevRyd]

My statement was simple. Just because you have owned a lot of BMW's does not mean you are more intelligent as an owner who may be on his first BMW. That's all

Kevin

Originally Posted by Propagator

Are you seriously suggesting that insulting those that disagree with you by questioning their intelligence, and accusing them of having "stupid agenda" and making "stupid argument" is "keeping the discussion intelligent"?

I mean, some of you F30 guys are really getting cultish at this point. I can understand some annoyance at what you perceive to be unfair criticisms aimed at your recent significant purchase, but let's not try to redefine the meaning of civil and intelligent discourse.

I have to wonder just what "stupid agenda" that all these magazines have to bitch about the F30, that they didn't have when the E90 came along. If all the negative reviews in no way reflect on the F30, and only betray some sinister agenda by these publications, then what exactly is that agenda and why didn't they have the same agenda 7 years ago? Or in fact, is any review about any car in any way connected to the reality in this world view? Or is everything driven by one or other "stupid agenda"? Come on guys, you can do better than this.

The difficulty you guys have in admitting a single flaw in an otherwise well designed car, so that you can claim that your car is beyond reproach, is just mind boggling.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Propagator

There is nothing I disagree with you there. I have never accused any F30 owner of blindly chasing the latest, but if some others have, that's very distasteful. I don't doubt that people are not careless when spending $50~60K on what is essentially a compact sedan. Of course you bought it because you liked it. But conversely, I don't think it's fair to lump all E90 owners into one category and accuse us of criticizing the F30 purely out of jealousy. (I think you are agreeing with me on this point.)

As many have pointed out, every new generation of the 3er brought about some level of criticism from the previous gen owners. But I think it is also true that this time around there is an unusual amount of criticism targeted at the fun-to-drive factor of the new car. I'm not making this up, I remember very well when the E90 came out, and of course many E46 owners complained, but there really wasn't that much criticism against the way the E90 drove. (Only some from ZHP owners, which, admittedly, was a fantastic car.) And such criticism was virtually absent from any major publications at the time. So while it's fine for anyone to not agree with this particular criticism, I don't see how one can act as if there is absolutely no substance to this issue, and all these people have some hidden agenda. (Not you, but others)

While I am at it, let me explain what I like the least about this new direction by BMW that you described. It isn't so much that the F30 is a bad car, far from it, but it's the overall direction that BMW is heading to with all the F-series cars, and why I think that's happening. One word: China. China is projected to become the biggest market for BMW by next year, and I think this new direction of BMW getting more luxury oriented, which almost always reduces the driver engagement, is closely related to that.

China is a very interesting case, in that it has an enormous influence on the market already, and yet it is still a developing country. Of course we've always had developing countries in the world, but until the rise of China, none of them had any real influence on the design of products that were sold in the first world countries, especially at the upper end of the spectrum. But now things are different. The world's top makers are all doing their best to cater to the Chinese taste, and in case of automobile industry where the economy of scale is paramount, that effort is actually affecting the kind of cars that are offered in the US as well, as basically the same products are sold in both countries.

Sometimes this is a good thing, but not always, as China still has the taste of a developing country. Now, I happened to have been raised in a developing country myself, and as much as I respect and cheer for any country that is getting itself out of poverty (and that's of course the most important thing), I have a rather dim view of the "taste" prevalent in such countries. It tends to be ostentatious and status conscious, with very little playfulness or joy. So we now have long wheelbase 3 series, so that some hotshot in China can be driven in. (Think about it. Making the car chauffeur-able must have been a design factor for the F30, however minimal that requirement must have been.) The 5 series is basically a 7 series now, and no longer the sportiest entry in the class. The new 1 series is also softer than the first gen, although I'm hoping that the 2er would be better.

All is well in Munich though, since they are doing extremely well not just in China but also in the US. So for now, it seems like they are catching two birds with one stone. But I think there is a danger that BMW could go down this road too far, and lose the core fans in the west. The recent criticism from C&D, which used to be accused of being in BMW's pocket, has been maybe overly harsh, but I think it's their way of sounding the alarm, that the sacred place BMW had for many US enthusiasts is not a guaranteed spot. We'll see what happens in the next generation, but the reason that I keep saying they should make the car less soft at LCI is because I'd like to see some sign that the guys at Munich understand this problem, rather than simply being smitten by the rising sales in China.

Not disagreeing - but they are making an L version of the 3 Series only for china to extend it. It seems "Rear Leg Room = Prestige" in China. The version we have in the rest of the world is not the "long wheelbase 3 series" version they want.

http://autos.ca.msn.com/reviews/2014...mo-first-drive

"The GT is 20 cm longer, wider and 8.1 cm taller than the newly released 3 Series Touring and sedan. And its wheelbase is around 11 cm longer than its more traditional siblings. In fact, the GT shares the same extended platform found under the stretched 3 Series limousine made exclusively for China"

[oceanview]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

My statement was simple. Just because you have owned a lot of BMW's does not mean you are more intelligent as an owner who may be on his first BMW. That's all
Kevin

I think a person who made the right decision buying a BMW a few times already, must be very intelligent.
The fact, that people move from other manufacturers to a BMW for the first time, proves there ability to learn

[KevRyd]

Still not the point but your getting closer

Knowledge <> Intelligence

Originally Posted by oceanview

I think a person who made the right decision buying a BMW a few times already, must be very intelligent.
The fact, that people move from other manufacturers to a BMW for the first time, proves there ability to learn