Thrust arm ball joint removal...how do?!

AdamN52 · 07-31-2015, 07:44 AM

Could you get a nut threaded on, get a piece of pipe (or similar) lined up on the top side of the nut and bang it down with a mallet?

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamN52

Could you get a nut threaded on, get a piece of pipe (or similar) lined up on the top side of the nut and bang it down with a mallet?

That's a great idea, but unfortunately the axle and boot are directly over probably 50% of the top of the ball joint...even with the steering wheel turned all the way to one side.

After rereading your post I guess I'm not sure how you mean...

Greyfox · 07-31-2015, 07:49 AM

You have gotten further with your balljoints than I did.... the torx bolts stripped on me and after calling an indy shop they said they could get them out in an hour.

I just went out and looked at the old ones and it looks like they used an air chisel at an angle with a 1/2" to 3/4" flat tip and hit against the top of the balljoint (up near the CV joint) and drove them out.

Will take a bit but I can get a pic if needed.

AdamN52 · 07-31-2015, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twastheglow

That's a great idea, but unfortunately the axle and boot are directly over probably 50% of the top of the ball joint...even with the steering wheel turned all the way to one side.

Dang. It's tough working in tight areas like that - hope you get it figured out! I feel for your frustration man, we've all been there one time or other doing DIY repairs

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyfox

You have gotten further with your balljoints than I did.... the torx bolts stripped on me and after calling an indy shop they said they could get them out in an hour.

I just went out and looked at the old ones and it looks like they used an air chisel at an angle with a 1/2" to 3/4" flat tip and hit against the top of the balljoint (up near the CV joint) and drove them out.

Will take a bit but I can get a pic if needed.

Thanks for the info. I guess I was wondering how a shop with I'm sure a larger array of tools than myself would handle this. That synchs up with what a previous member had posted as his method. I keep hedging on getting air tools as I know they'd make the jobs I do a bit easier, but this is the first time I might actually be stuck without them.

I'm about to leave the ball joint bolts out and bolt the control arm back on And just run the car down the driveway and over some bumps. LOL

robthewrench · 07-31-2015, 07:55 AM

Thanks for the pics. I think most people (including me) didn't understand your problem, and a lot of us don't have the Xi and aren't familiar with that thrust arm.

It looks like the ball joint is still in mount, you've cut off the ears of the diamond bracket to try and get it loose, but it's still stuck. Is that right?

One question before I offer a suggestion: Is there a c-clip or wire ring anywhere on the top of that mount? I haven't done an Xi ball joint, but on some other cars, there's a c-clip on top of the joint. If a clip like that is in there, it would explain why you can't get it to release. The diamond bracket makes me think there would not be a c-clip, but just wanted to check.

One suggestion: now that you have the ears off the diamond bracket, could you use two nuts (or bolts or ....) and the ball joint stud and arm to press it off? Here's what I mean: put the control arm back on the ball joint stud and taper, but only just enough to get the nut on 1-2 threads. Now put two nuts (one on each side) between the arm and the socket mount. Put these where you cut the ears off. These need to be big enough to span the distance of the grease boot. Now tighten the ball joint nut. If you can get this to work, the arm is pushing on the nuts against the ball joint mount and the tightening of the nut on the ball joint stud will pull the joint out of the socket. Even if it doesn't pull it out, put in under tension using this method and then whack it from above with the screwdriver / hammer.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamN52

Dang. It's tough working in tight areas like that - hope you get it figured out! I feel for your frustration man, we've all been there one time or other doing DIY repairs

Thanks. And yeah, I'm definitely used to DIY frustrations. Haha I'm sure when a buddy come over with the torch tonight we'll figure something. I just wish there was a tool I could make/buy that would make this job easier. Seems everyone I've read about has had the same problem with these.

lichtgelb · 07-31-2015, 08:01 AM

Pics make it all clear now. I didn't realize the ball joint was pressed into the steering knuckle on the Xi. On the RWD cars all the ball joints are pressed into the control and thrust arms so they are simply changed out as an entire unit.

Did the hammer trick work to free the ball joint from the thrust arm or did you already have it broken free when I made that post?

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthewrench

Thanks for the pics. I think most people (including me) didn't understand your problem, and a lot of us don't have the Xi and aren't familiar with that thrust arm.

It looks like the ball joint is still in mount, you've cut off the ears of the diamond bracket to try and get it loose, but it's still stuck. Is that right?

One question before I offer a suggestion: Is there a c-clip or wire ring anywhere on the top of that mount? I haven't done an Xi ball joint, but on some other cars, there's a c-clip on top of the joint. If a clip like that is in there, it would explain why you can't get it to release. The diamond bracket makes me think there would not be a c-clip, but just wanted to check.

One suggestion: now that you have the ears off the diamond bracket, could you use two nuts (or bolts or ....) and the ball joint stud and arm to press it off? Here's what I mean: put the control arm back on the ball joint stud and taper, but only just enough to get the nut on 1-2 threads. Now put two nuts (one on each side) between the arm and the socket mount. Put these where you cut the ears off. These need to be big enough to span the distance of the grease boot. Now tighten the ball joint nut. If you can get this to work, the arm is pushing on the nuts against the ball joint mount and the tightening of the nut on the ball joint stud will pull the joint out of the socket. Even if it doesn't pull it out, put in under tension using this method and then whack it from above with the screwdriver / hammer.

No problem at all. I probably should have done that in the first place. Haha But you're right, I'm sure most people reading this were thinking of the 330i arms/joints and probably couldn't understand what my problem was.

There is no C-clip or anything of the sort. That was a good thought but based on RealOEM's part diagram and having the new part in my hand, I don't see how that would be possible.

That's actually a brilliant idea...and one that I've tried. The problem I'm having with it, and the reason I stopped, is no matter what I used as a "spacer/wedge" it would twist the arm as I tightened the nut. The mating surface where the ball joint goes is flat, but the arm has curvature to it. No matter how I positioned things it would ultimately twists the arm the tighter and tighter I made the nut. There isn't a flat enough surface on the arm to make 90° contact and have it stay under great pressure. Obviously the twisting was a huge problem as I don't want to tear the bushing on the other end. I ended up abandoning that idea after a couple hours of trying different objects and repositioning them countless times.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lichtgelb

Pics make it all clear now. I didn't realize the ball joint was pressed into the steering knuckle on the Xi. On the RWD cars all the ball joints are pressed into the control and thrust arms so they are simply changed out as an entire unit.

Did the hammer trick work to free the ball joint from the thrust arm or did you already have it broken free when I made that post?

Good, them I'm glad I finally posted them. I should have started off with that. LOL

I had the thrust arm pulled before even making this thread. That part was easy. Over the years I've pulled many ball joints using the traditional methods. On this one in particular I used a 2-jaw gear puller.

mweisdorfer · 07-31-2015, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twastheglow

Looking down from above:

Side view: (here you can see where I dremeled off one of the tabs in hopes of getting some kind of puller or separator on it...no luck so far)

Brand new part for reference:

And for anyone not familiar with this area of the car, there is no way to get a 2-jaw gear puller on it from above. That damn steel diamond shaped frame that bolts the joint to spindle makes it difficult to use all conventional methods of pulling that out. The next step is to carefully apply heat with a torch tonight, but I still haven't figured out a good way to push/pull it out. Looks like I'll have to start with brute force using a long strong screwdriver and a 4lb mallet from above.

Wow, that stinks.....

BMW probably reinforced the ballpoints in the front due the the extra stress put on the front end from AWD.

If you can't get them out, you probably have 2 options

A) put the car back together and pay a specialty front end shop to do it for you

B) buy the whole arm(s)

Either option is going to be $$

lichtgelb · 07-31-2015, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twastheglow

Good, them I'm glad I finally posted them. I should have started off with that. LOL

I had the thrust arm pulled before even making this thread. That part was easy. Over the years I've pulled many ball joints using the traditional methods. On this one in particular I used a 2-jaw gear puller.

I'm thinking I would get all the oil/grease off there and heat up the surrounding metal with a heat gun or even a torch then hit it with an air chisel.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mweisdorfer

Wow, that stinks.....

BMW probably reinforced the ballpoints in the front due the the extra stress put on the front end from AWD.

If you can't get them out, you probably have 2 options

A) put the car back together and pay a specialty front end shop to do it for you

B) buy the whole arm(s)

Either option is going to be $$

I'll get it out one way or another. I just REALLY don't want to have to pull everything off that spindle and take the whole damn thing out just to have the f'ing ball joint pressed out on a press. Hahaha But not funny at the same time.

And option B isn't even an option. Even if they came as one unit (which they don't), I'd still need to pull this ball joint to put another one in...which is what I'm trying to do.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lichtgelb

I'm thinking I would get all the oil/grease off there and heat up the surrounding metal with a heat gun or even a torch then hit it with an air chisel.

Yeah, that's the Kroil that you see that I so liberally used. Haha Next step is acetylene after work tonight...but I still don't have access to an air chisel...so we'll see what I can come up with.

mweisdorfer · 07-31-2015, 08:31 AM

Ya, I feel your frustration. I had my rear ball joints toe arm bushings and subframe bushings go out this last winter.

I live in Michigan, which uses salt on the roads. This of course corrodes any part and makes it next to impossible for the average DIY guy to take out and replace such parts.

I don't have air tools, so a torch wouldn't do me much good. I am afraid if I did use air tools on the parts, I would just end up snapping off the bolt. Then I would be buying several $15.00 Cobalt drill bits in order to drill the snapped bolt out

So, I just paid the piper and bought lemforder (which is a BMW supplier) and BMW parts when the prices were close or comparable and took the parts to a front end guy I trust. I ended up paying about $300.00 for labor and a 4-wheel alignment.

Maestro · 07-31-2015, 09:09 AM

I'm thinking you will need to pull the trans axle out to get access to the ball joint with a ball joint press. With the axle out of the way you should not have an issue pressing out the ball joint. With that said not sure how hard it is to get the axle out. You can barrow a ball joint press from advance auto or buy one from harbor freight.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

I'm thinking you will need to pull the trans axle out to get access to the ball joint with a ball joint press. With the axle out of the way you should not have an issue pressing out the ball joint. With that said not sure how hard it is to get the axle out. You can barrow a ball joint press from advance auto or buy one from harbor freight.

I would certainly consider that if I could get something on the top of the ball joint. Based on the ball joints frame, the only possible tool I can think of using is a gear puller. And even with the axle out of the equation, there's still no place I can get more than 1 jaw locked onto something in order to push down on that damn joint. It's pretty crazy that all conventional wisdom and methodology have to go out the window on this job. I'm going to use a torch and hopefully figure out a way to exert enough force/pressure on the top to push it down through while the spindle's steel is super hot and expanded.

Maestro · 07-31-2015, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twastheglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

I'm thinking you will need to pull the trans axle out to get access to the ball joint with a ball joint press. With the axle out of the way you should not have an issue pressing out the ball joint. With that said not sure how hard it is to get the axle out. You can barrow a ball joint press from advance auto or buy one from harbor freight.

I would certainly consider that if I could get something on the top of the ball joint. Based on the ball joints frame, the only possible tool I can think of using is a gear puller. And even with the axle out of the equation, there's still no place I can get more than 1 jaw locked onto something in order to push down on that damn joint. It's pretty crazy that all conventional wisdom and methodology have to go out the window on this job. I'm going to use a torch and hopefully figure out a way to exert enough force/pressure on the top to push it down through while the spindle's steel is super hot and expanded.

This will work I have used this to press out ball joints which are press in like what you are dealing with. The issue are those flanges they may get in the way you already cut one off you may need to cut the other. I'm not home so I can not look in the Bentley book to see what they say you need to do.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00061...PRL&ref=plSrch

Advance and harbor freight both have this.

stashtrey · 07-31-2015, 09:33 AM

I used this:

http://m.harborfreight.com/3-4-quart...not%20provided

And a mini sledge, lots of PB blaster, a large flat screw driver wedged into the ball joint plate and the spindle and a few different sized chisels.

One side came out right away with the separator tool, a socket stacked on top of the metal cone on top of the ball joint and an impact running the nut on the tool. The other side took me over an hour of working at it, pounding the shit out of it with the sledge, impacting, chiseling etc.

The separator got it going but eventually I had to resort to more violent, caveman methods. Lots of four letter words and frustration. When it came loose it was like winning the lottery!

Keep at it. It will break eventually. Would be nice if there was some kind of rubber gasket or if the diamond shaped plate had a raised edge on either side allowing more access with a tool etc.

I didn't get to page 2 so if you already got it out...congratulations! If not...hopefully this helps.

doru · 07-31-2015, 09:38 AM

Post #25. Air tool - an air hammer will pop it out in no time.

twastheglow · 07-31-2015, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

This will work I have used this to press out ball joints which are press in like what you are dealing with. The issue are those flanges they may get in the way you already cut one off you may need to cut the other. I'm not home so I can not look in the Bentley book to see what they say you need to do.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00061...PRL&ref=plSrch

Advance and harbor freight both have this.

I've looked at those kits in picture form but haven't had one in my hand to compare to the task at hand. So I can't comment with certainty that it WON'T work. As you mentioned, I WAS able to cut off one of the mounting tabs, but I don't know that I can get a dremel back to where the other one is. It's quite recessed and the collar of the dremel, as well as the dremel itself will not fit deep enough to get the cutting wheel to make contact with the tab. Therefore removal of the second tab is HIGHLY doubtful; which is why I deemed the kit you posted as unfit.

If you have access to a Bentley (which I don't have for an E90 yet as the car is only a few weeks old to me), I would LOVE to hear what it says should be done...!!!

stashtrey · 07-31-2015, 09:41 AM

I think part of the problem is that when pounding the shit out of the metal cone it expands in the spindle causing it to jam up even more.

I know I couldn't have pounced in that little motherfucker any more and was pretty nervous at the climax of just wanting it out. Kinda like what delivering a baby must feel like accept no physical pain!

07-31-2015, 07:44 AM	#23
AdamN52 First Lieutenant 16 Rep 301 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi (E90) Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	Could you get a nut threaded on, get a piece of pipe (or similar) lined up on the top side of the nut and bang it down with a mallet?
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07-31-2015, 07:55 AM	#28
robthewrench Captain 266 Rep 952 Posts Drives: 11 E90 335i Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Columbus OH iTrader: (0)	Thanks for the pics. I think most people (including me) didn't understand your problem, and a lot of us don't have the Xi and aren't familiar with that thrust arm. It looks like the ball joint is still in mount, you've cut off the ears of the diamond bracket to try and get it loose, but it's still stuck. Is that right? One question before I offer a suggestion: Is there a c-clip or wire ring anywhere on the top of that mount? I haven't done an Xi ball joint, but on some other cars, there's a c-clip on top of the joint. If a clip like that is in there, it would explain why you can't get it to release. The diamond bracket makes me think there would not be a c-clip, but just wanted to check. One suggestion: now that you have the ears off the diamond bracket, could you use two nuts (or bolts or ....) and the ball joint stud and arm to press it off? Here's what I mean: put the control arm back on the ball joint stud and taper, but only just enough to get the nut on 1-2 threads. Now put two nuts (one on each side) between the arm and the socket mount. Put these where you cut the ears off. These need to be big enough to span the distance of the grease boot. Now tighten the ball joint nut. If you can get this to work, the arm is pushing on the nuts against the ball joint mount and the tightening of the nut on the ball joint stud will pull the joint out of the socket. Even if it doesn't pull it out, put in under tension using this method and then whack it from above with the screwdriver / hammer. __________________ bone stock
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07-31-2015, 08:01 AM	#30
lichtgelb Lieutenant 107 Rep 485 Posts Drives: 2009 E93 335i Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Flyover Country iTrader: (0)	Pics make it all clear now. I didn't realize the ball joint was pressed into the steering knuckle on the Xi. On the RWD cars all the ball joints are pressed into the control and thrust arms so they are simply changed out as an entire unit. Did the hammer trick work to free the ball joint from the thrust arm or did you already have it broken free when I made that post?
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07-31-2015, 08:31 AM	#37
mweisdorfer Major General 1909 Rep 6,968 Posts Drives: 2007 Black/Black 335i e90 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Holly, MI iTrader: (0) Garage List 2007 BMW E90 335i [0.00] 2008 bmw x5 [0.00]	Ya, I feel your frustration. I had my rear ball joints toe arm bushings and subframe bushings go out this last winter. I live in Michigan, which uses salt on the roads. This of course corrodes any part and makes it next to impossible for the average DIY guy to take out and replace such parts. I don't have air tools, so a torch wouldn't do me much good. I am afraid if I did use air tools on the parts, I would just end up snapping off the bolt. Then I would be buying several $15.00 Cobalt drill bits in order to drill the snapped bolt out So, I just paid the piper and bought lemforder (which is a BMW supplier) and BMW parts when the prices were close or comparable and took the parts to a front end guy I trust. I ended up paying about $300.00 for labor and a 4-wheel alignment.
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07-31-2015, 09:09 AM	#38
Maestro Major 1038 Rep 1,268 Posts Drives: 2007 335i Sedan, 2021 X3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Philadelphia iTrader: (0)	I'm thinking you will need to pull the trans axle out to get access to the ball joint with a ball joint press. With the axle out of the way you should not have an issue pressing out the ball joint. With that said not sure how hard it is to get the axle out. You can barrow a ball joint press from advance auto or buy one from harbor freight.
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07-31-2015, 07:49 AM	#25
Greyfox Colonel 1208 Rep 2,835 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi E91 - 330k+ (miles) Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: USA iTrader: (2)	You have gotten further with your balljoints than I did.... the torx bolts stripped on me and after calling an indy shop they said they could get them out in an hour. I just went out and looked at the old ones and it looks like they used an air chisel at an angle with a 1/2" to 3/4" flat tip and hit against the top of the balljoint (up near the CV joint) and drove them out. Will take a bit but I can get a pic if needed.
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07-31-2015, 09:33 AM	#41
stashtrey Lieutenant Colonel 294 Rep 1,834 Posts Drives: 08 E90 335xi TiAg Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Sacramento, CA iTrader: (8) Garage List 2008 E90 335xi Sedan [0.00]	I used this: http://m.harborfreight.com/3-4-quart...not%20provided And a mini sledge, lots of PB blaster, a large flat screw driver wedged into the ball joint plate and the spindle and a few different sized chisels. One side came out right away with the separator tool, a socket stacked on top of the metal cone on top of the ball joint and an impact running the nut on the tool. The other side took me over an hour of working at it, pounding the shit out of it with the sledge, impacting, chiseling etc. The separator got it going but eventually I had to resort to more violent, caveman methods. Lots of four letter words and frustration. When it came loose it was like winning the lottery! Keep at it. It will break eventually. Would be nice if there was some kind of rubber gasket or if the diamond shaped plate had a raised edge on either side allowing more access with a tool etc. I didn't get to page 2 so if you already got it out...congratulations! If not...hopefully this helps.
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07-31-2015, 09:38 AM	#42
doru Lieutenant 130 Rep 482 Posts Drives: e92, f25, e46, e83 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Calgary iTrader: (0)	Post #25. Air tool - an air hammer will pop it out in no time. __________________ Stable: e92is f25 N52 e83 N52 e46ci M54B25 (e53 N62 - sold, R.I.P. e39 M54B30)
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07-31-2015, 09:41 AM	#44
stashtrey Lieutenant Colonel 294 Rep 1,834 Posts Drives: 08 E90 335xi TiAg Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Sacramento, CA iTrader: (8) Garage List 2008 E90 335xi Sedan [0.00]	I think part of the problem is that when pounding the shit out of the metal cone it expands in the spindle causing it to jam up even more. I know I couldn't have pounced in that little motherfucker any more and was pretty nervous at the climax of just wanting it out. Kinda like what delivering a baby must feel like accept no physical pain!
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