[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Pete, I understand where you're coming from but I would try to separate quality from the designed spec. For example, the E30 would not possibly compete with a modern car for NVH, but the 'quality' in my eyes (possibly with rose tinted specs!) of the build was better than my F30. Mercs of that era too... They just had that 'bank vault' feel that had you thinking they would last forever.

Whether it's by design or as a result of modern construction techniques that allow for more efficient build cost I've no idea. Or perhaps modern recyclable plastics are just inherently more creaky!

Interesting that we are talking of the older cars, just a few minutes ago I was at my neighbours, watering plants. His 1998 E39 535i is outside, she's an old girl now having covered well over 250,000 miles and not on the road at the moment. Shame as the V8 is one of the best examples for quiet running, even with the mileage. I had a look around and the memories of what an E39 was and still is, is quite evident. You just know it is a solid car.

Having been there myself in an E39 touring for over 4 years, I continuously compare to my F11. Yes there are areas where you know BMW have been working to keep the total cost down and we benefit from that. My 540i was listed at £50k in 1998, the F11 £60k in 2011. We have so much more in the car these days for the money, so cost control along with environmental issues has to come into the equation. But I personally don't see the build quality in the F11 being worse than the E39. What does feel a bit different is the solidity of the car, but like I said in another post using the door example, is it really a quality issue? I sense perceived quality is a big part here, solid cars feel as if they are better quality.

Going back to the E39, it's a superb example of BMW at its pinnacle for build and overall quality, but still had its weaknesses, some of them quality related.

But just sit in an E39, touch the dash or door cappings, feel the thud of the door closing... the competence of the package as a driver's car. To keep that sort of standard will cost us much more these days. Are we really willing to pay, or are BMW pitching it about right? Depends how we judge it I suppose.

HighlandPete

[dopper99]

I think if you want higher quality materials ................. BMW would like you to buy a 5 or 7 series!

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by dopper99

I think if you want higher quality materials ................. BMW would like you to buy a 5 or 7 series!

But I just don't want a car that size! I want that kind of refinement/quality in 3 sized package!

[HighlandPete]

Being around BMW from pre 3, 5, 7-series days (father's first BMW was a New Class 2000 Sedan) and experiencing the models from E12, E21 & E23, I can confirm the statement that BMW were "same sausage, different skin". BMW boasted the 3-series was to the same build and quality standard as the 7-series. Just a smaller model. I wish I'd kept the old brochures with that clearly part of BMW's claim.

Was talking with a BMW Technical Area Manager, who used that definition, "same sausage, different skin" and he said BMW no longer build cars that way, (a 3-series is not a smaller 5-series), model ranges are now tailored to the market segment, that does change the quality perception.

Doesn't make the smaller cars necessarily deficient, but different, intentionally so.

HighlandPete

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Being around BMW from pre 3, 5, 7-series days (father's first BMW was a New Class 2000 Sedan) and experiencing the models from E12, E21 & E23, I can confirm the statement that BMW were "same sausage, different skin". BMW boasted the 3-series was to the same build and quality standard as the 7-series. Just a smaller model. I wish I'd kept the old brochures with that clearly part of BMW's claim.

Was talking with a BMW Technical Area Manager, who used that definition, "same sausage, different skin" and he said BMW no longer build cars that way, (a 3-series is not a smaller 5-series), model ranges are now tailored to the market segment, that does change the quality perception.

Doesn't make the smaller cars necessarily deficient, but different, intentionally so.

HighlandPete

From a marketing perspective it makes complete sense to trailer to each segment. In reality, the average age and other demographic will no doubt be very different across the range. The 3 series though has possibly the largest stretch given the sheer range go engines and bodystyle. So makes sense to me that a variance in interior and exterior quality would be relevant.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

But I just don't want a car that size! I want that kind of refinement/quality in 3 sized package!

You'll see from my last post why I personally think that won't likely happen. Although hold exactly the same view. I remember getting out of my E12 and getting into dad's E23 (same engine) and thinking it is just a bigger car, everything else felt the same.

BTW, my wife views the 3-series as an adolescent, the 5-series as grown up. Think she has a point.

HighlandPete

[Im1]

Came from e60 530d to f30 330d . Find the NVH in the f30 limits my cruising speed .

Next time I will go for a 5 even if it means I have to go for a smaller engine to offset the cost

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Im1

Came from e60 530d to f30 330d . Find the NVH in the f30 limits my cruising speed .

Next time I will go for a 5 even if it means I have to go for a smaller engine to offset the cost

I wouldn't say it's that bad, unless you're regularly on the autobahn!

But agree that I really noticed this improvement in the E60 I had for a short time. My alternative strategy is that I'm going to look into some aftermarket sound insulation options. Seems relatively inexpensive and should have additional benefits in audio sound quality and reduced squeaks and rattles. Hopefully!