NOT a track car..

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by Experimental

A) Track Days, which most are High Performance Drivers Education, are meant to help you learn the characteristics of your street vehicle and keep proficient at high performance driving. That's always something to keep in mind.

so I was thinking about what you said above, and my personal opinion is that this is not at all the case. it's pure marketing and BS to get people interested and feel safer. HPDEs are not meant for that, let's be serious. It's a chance for people to drive fast around a racetrack as a hobby, and you usually see two kinds of people there: 1) owners of fast cars (like ourselves) who want to go fast but can't unravel much of the car's potential on the street, or 2) track addicts who have highly modded cars and do it as a hobby. I mean, how many stock Jettas, Focus, Mazda3s, SUVs etc do we see out there?

HPDEs does help to understand the car's limits. But that doesn't apply to the streets at all because if you're getting anywhere close to those limits (and not only for a BMW, any car really), than you're an irresponsible prick who's putting people's lives in danger. 95% of the driving done in an HPDE doesn't apply to the streets at all. In fact, the only learning I take is how the brakes respond (how fast I can stop the car in case of an emergency), and maybe how the car responds in the wet (if like me you had the chance to track it in the wet). and even then that's not 100% correct because if I were driving in the wet on the streets I wouldn't be going that fast and I (as most ppl) don't really mess with traction control for DD. the other essential point of driving on the streets that I can think of is to know how the car would react if I had to jerk it to either side while going fast if I had to quickly to dodge from something. and you don't get into that in an HPDE.. you learn to be "smooth" all the time, which doesn't really teach you much for the streets.

if it were an event to learn the characteristics of the car, it would be more like what they have at the PDC in south carolina.. skidpads with wet and dry areas, slaloms, etc. out on the streets you don't do 120mph, you don't aim for the apex of curves, you don't point people by to pass you, you don't stick to your driving line and let the other person go around (you get to the right lane!).... you get the point.

and last but not least, it wouldn't be timed if it weren't a competitive event and there wouldn't be trophies and rewards for people who can go faster..!

let's be serious, I love HPDEs, love driving on the track, love going fast, and love the competition.. but let's not be hypocritical and let's admit it's a hobby, not a chance to improve your driving skills for use on the streets!

[N55_BBM]

wow just realized how long my post was ^^

i'm bored at work today sorry guys

[Ash83]

in BMW world a few mods = $$$$$

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Tracking 1M you will also need upgrades. It's still dd car you can't have it all...
Like brakes which can't be very good on track and dd

agreed. but it's way less modifications you need in comparison to the 135..

I mean the tires aren't track tires exactly but they work, suspension is great, camber is there, LSD is there....

it's probably more of an upgrade to cooling components.

unless of course you wan't to be super hard core and built a monster track toy. you can always improve any car, whether it's a 1M or a Porsche.

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

you did the right thing; glory or death (to car or person)!

and i watched him do it... It wasnt pretty... but he did it..

I guess it is always a compliment when the chief stewart / Trainer comes up to you in false grid and commends you on you over 80mph 4 wheel power slide coming down onto the straight that is know for making pretty little ARMCO / GUARDRAIL ornaments out of peolpls cars....

Well done bruno... and he is being Modest.. He was almost FTD but a pesky racer in a prepped car beat him...and not by much .. p.s i was behind him ( bruno), not the racer by about 2 seconds in my 128 AUTO !!!!...

Its all about compromise and willing to accept the draw backs.. Personally i prefer my car set up for the street, which it is.. id say 70% strret and 30% track... I only track it 5 times a year ... thats only about 300 or 400 track miles out of 12,000 !!!! just my .02


and as the 2 sayings go:

You gotta pay to play

and

How fast do you want to go???? How much money do you have ???

[N55_BBM]

lol that was actually a very classy, well executed drift. I don't know how I managed to keep my cool. I thought I was gonna crap my pants halfway through it.

hey at least I learned exactly how fast the car can go on the wet. I'd say it's a learning to take out to the streets but not exactly. I was going faster than any speed limit would allow me to go on a dry straight road anywhere in the country, lol...

[Experimental]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

so I was thinking about what you said above, and my personal opinion is that this is not at all the case. it's pure marketing and BS to get people interested and feel safer.

Everyone has an opinion. The majority of HPDEs I've been to either frown upon timing vehicles on the track, or do not allow it all together. And the reason is so that it's not competitive. It's not a test and tune session. We're not talking race school here, we're talking street cars on a track. Now, if you're at the level of timing and competitiveness either with your own times or other cars and drivers, you've left the arena of learning your car's limits and characteristics, and you're certainly into needing additional modifications to handle what paces you are putting the car through.

When I do an HPDE, I'm there to learn my car's characteristics and have a good time. Not as a competitive event. If I were there to compete, I wouldn't be bringing my street car. I'd be bringing a purpose built car.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by Experimental

Everyone has an opinion. The majority of HPDEs I've been to either frown upon timing vehicles on the track, or do not allow it all together. And the reason is so that it's not competitive. It's not a test and tune session. We're not talking race school here, we're talking street cars on a track. Now, if you're at the level of timing and competitiveness either with your own times or other cars and drivers, you've left the arena of learning your car's limits and characteristics, and you're certainly into needing additional modifications to handle what paces you are putting the car through.

When I do an HPDE, I'm there to learn my car's characteristics and have a good time. Not as a competitive event. If I were there to compete, I wouldn't be bringing my street car. I'd be bringing a purpose built car.

Fully agree. My question to you who do this as a learning experience is, other than how fast you can go and how fast you can brake (which you can do on any empty straight), what do you learn from an HPDE event or what skills do you gain that you could possibly translate to the street? And I'm not mocking or attacking you, just legitimately curious.

Or are you saying you just go to learn your car characteristics for fun or sake of knowing its limits and potential, although you'll never need to drive it in that extreme manner out there?

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by Experimental

Everyone has an opinion. The majority of HPDEs I've been to either frown upon timing vehicles on the track, or do not allow it all together. And the reason is so that it's not competitive. It's not a test and tune session. We're not talking race school here, we're talking street cars on a track. Now, if you're at the level of timing and competitiveness either with your own times or other cars and drivers, you've left the arena of learning your car's limits and characteristics, and you're certainly into needing additional modifications to handle what paces you are putting the car through.

When I do an HPDE, I'm there to learn my car's characteristics and have a good time. Not as a competitive event. If I were there to compete, I wouldn't be bringing my street car. I'd be bringing a purpose built car.

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

Fully agree. My question to you who do this as a learning experience is, other than how fast you can go and how fast you can brake (which you can do on any empty straight), what do you learn from an HPDE event or what skills do you gain that you could possibly translate to the street? And I'm not mocking or attacking you, just legitimately curious.

Or are you saying you just go to learn your car characteristics for fun or sake of knowing its limits and potential, although you'll never need to drive it in that extreme manner out there?

Dont mean to interrupt your conversation.. but i sense that N55BBM may not know the differenc between a true HPDE ( High Performnce driving event) and TT's (Time Trialing )

HPDE's are not usually timed, are mostly with an instructor, and are split between track time and classroom time and skidpad tiime (... More focus is on teaching than actual driving fast...

Now TT'ing ( which we do ) is basically run what you brung and being grouped in similar vehicle / ability of driver and your asked to please not run into each other.. TT's are Timed and Trophies given and Point awarded for the season.

I would suspect the HPDE's are a little less agressive on the cars than TT'ing is.... Just my .02 and observations


carry on..

[N55_BBM]

ah ok right woops thought it was essentially the same thing lol

[Lubo]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

Very true. But I think in terms of dollars and time, a "few" is quite an understatement. Suspension alone between all different parts, labor for installation, alignment, adjustments, etc., you're already well beyond the $3k barrier if you're lucky and get it right on the first shot. Tires? Another $1000 at the very least. Brake ducts? ~$800 for the performance bumper with the ducts, which apparently aren't even that efficient. Drilled rotors/performance brakes? Another $1000. Better racing fluid (plus having to flush it/bleed it way more often), another couple hundred... LSD, camber plates, etc? Probably around at least $1k...

I mean if you add it up you're better off getting a 1M

I've done quite few events last year with the car. Here is what I have done. Transforms the car a lot and is enough if you don't race for trophies and do 5-8 events a year.

Wheels and tires $1200 (255x40x17 Star Spec on TR motorsport wheel)
Camber plates $450 (Vorshlag)
EBC yellow pads, Motul 600 and Ti plates $500

[TX78666]

I do it to have fun at the track, and I've had fun with worse tires, brakes, suspension, engine, transmission, etc., than the 135. So, it suits my track purposes fine, although there will certainly be mods in the future.

"Track car" could mean anything. Look at some of the cars in the Sportscar Vintage Racing Association. http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.ns...U?OpenDocument Those are "track cars." Having owned both, I have no problem saying that the 135 has better brakes, tires, and suspension, than a Triumph Spitfire.

There are "grand stock" classes of races all over the place, where you take a stock clunker on the track and race competitively. They're called grand stock, because you aren't supposed to spend more than a grand. They enforce it, by requiring you to sell your car to anyone who offers you $1,000. The 135 is head and shoulders above those.

My 2 cents. Taking the 135 to the track on Sunday, and taking the 135 and the 330 next month.

[Experimental]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

Fully agree. My question to you who do this as a learning experience is, other than how fast you can go and how fast you can brake (which you can do on any empty straight), what do you learn from an HPDE event or what skills do you gain that you could possibly translate to the street? And I'm not mocking or attacking you, just legitimately curious.

Or are you saying you just go to learn your car characteristics for fun or sake of knowing its limits and potential, although you'll never need to drive it in that extreme manner out there?

I'm not feeling mocked or attacked, and I hope you feel the same. We're both using the race track in different ways. That's all.

I go to an HPDE to learn the characteristics of my street vehicle in various situations. What is turn in like at various angles and speeds. What is the car's behavior during threshold vs. trail braking. Understeer and oversteer characteristics. How smoothly does the vehicle transition weight at speed. And how do I react to the vehicle in all of these situations, whether at the absolute limit or not, and how to recover this particular vehicle in the event that I miscalculate something along the way. All of this done in a safe environment.

Then I apply this to the street. It doesn't mean I drive at 9/10ths or 10/10ths on the street. It means I modify my driving habits to match the vehicle. The track also allows me to develop good driving habits (such as smooth driving, proper turn in at proper speeds, etc.) matched to the vehicles personality.

And then make a few minor modifications, and do it all over again...having a great time driving the car on a race track and socializing with a good group of car people in the process. So to say there's not some entertainment value there would be incorrect.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

Not many cars are track cars out of the factory

This.

Of course it's not a track car

Very few production cars (almost none in fact) are 'track cars'.

[Atropos]

It's a bit unrealistic to complain about any street car not having adequate tires for track days.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Experimental

I go to an HPDE to learn the characteristics of my street vehicle in various situations.... Then I apply this to the street.

I'd have to say, I don't think track driving has taught me anything that applies to street. I guess skid pad helps some people, but I grew up in the snow belt, so skid control is second nature for me.

OTOH I can say that I do drive more safely on the street, because it's so boring compared to the track, I never try to have fun on the street anymore.

[CrustyNoodle]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I'd have to say, I don't think track driving has taught me anything that applies to street. I guess skid pad helps some people, but I grew up in the snow belt, so skid control is second nature for me.

OTOH I can say that I do drive more safely on the street, because it's so boring compared to the track, I never try to have fun on the street anymore.

+1

If you want to have fun and go a bit silly then do it on a track - not on the street!

[Shoukin Kubi]

40,000$ factory track cars do not exist.

[masetcp]

^^ except the lotus elise. you can get em used for 30k now. perfect track car.

[IS+1]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

Warped my rotors on my 2nd track day and this past weekend I got air in my lines (and hopefully nothing more), probably because the fluid that comes stock is so crappy and not built to resist such hard braking. It gave by the end of the 2nd session.

Sorry to chime in to the original post so late, and sorry N55 BBM as I feel like I am partly responsible for causing your frustration with your tire wear situation, although I'm sure you would've discovered the issue on your own in due time.

Anyhow, my question to you is this - can you elaborate on your experience you described above with your brakes? Specifically:
1) How can you tell you got air in your lines?
2) When you say "it gave by the end of the 2nd session", what exactly happened? Did your brakes, or lack thereof, put you in a dangerous situation?

I just wanted to add that, although I wasn't running timed events, I did push my car quite hard, and recognizing it is a stock vehicle, I found it a blast to drive, overall very capable and my brakes held up exceptionally well.... my tires, well, that's another story, as you know.

[TX78666]

Just got back from 2.5 continuous hours on the track. Understeer and/or 4-wheel drift? Some, but some oversteer too; it just depended on the situation. Brake fade? None. Runflats? Not as sticky as I'd like, but they worked well enough for a G35 (or G37) and a WRX to go off into the dirt, trying to keep up or shake me. Sadly, they appear to have worn like they were made of granite, meaning I still don't get to replace them yet. Looks like I may never get to.

Overall verdict? I'll get rid of the runflats, but I always knew I would. I imagine that will mean a suspension upgrade, but I was eyeballing the BMW performance suspension anyway. Yep, it is a suitable track car in my mind, for awesome weekend fun (untimed and only moderately competitive enthusiast events).

[Sauce]

Ok guys, I have an issue with a lot that is being said in here. Modifications are NOT, I repeat are NOT necessary for a beginner to take the track. I pray that a track newbie doesn't read this thread and think ther need, wheels, r comps, susp, etc. to run on the track. The only thing this car needs is an oil cooler, and when the RFT's are toast, replace 'em with some star specs or pss, something of that nature. After that, every mod you do is covering up shortcomings and hindering moving forward as a driver. As you get better do brake fluid, pads, and lines. But apart from that, you are set. The stock susp. is wallowy and frankly, this car feels like sh*t stock, but you know what, it means you can master weight transfer. Any time you are getting pulled on a straight by a vette, focus on exiting the corner faster, don't cheat and get a jb4. When you truly can outdrive the stock car (for us that will take thousands of track miles), improve slightly piece by piece. Everything needs to compliment your driving style. It is disheartening to see a beginner show up to the track in a car that is prepared for Paul Tracy to whip it around for hours. The 135 is already competent enough to cover up mistakes. Seriously guys, it's wrong and unfair to advice new guys they MUST buy $5k worth of parts when they're already in over their head.