[Kerr]

Originally Posted by E60525d

Just read this thread and I cant believe some people are still referring to them as snow tyres. Some people are just plain ignorant or possibly worse!

They are called WINTER tyres and are superior to summer tyres for a several months at this time of the year. They provide better traction improving stability and braking.

Many of the manufacturers call them mud and snow tyres. That's what the M+S stand for.

I find them pretty awful to drive on. Very squidgy, lack any feel and don't actually have the overall grip real tyres do.

I know at a certain point they are better, but it certainly isn't the 7 degrees as claimed.

[Kerr]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I don't agree with that, the braking distance between summers and winters is far greater. Mind you the conti winter sports I had were crap! So I wouldn't be surprised if that was all they managed.

At 100kmph the official distance is 37m shorter on winter tyres on snow.

Have a look at this site and test 3 in the videos.....

http://www.etrma.org/activities/tran...e/tyre-testing

That was Continental's official spin on things.

If the snow was bad, I'd not be thinking about doing over 60MPH in the first place.

I had a 320d on winters the other year when my car was in the garage. It was totally disconnected to the road and the grip levels on normal roads was actually very poor. It was cold and a lot of salt down.

I didn't get the chance to drive it on tough snow, but I'll be honest and say, I'd be as happy driving with summer tyres for when I used them.

The car was probably worse to drive.

Yes once the snow is down they would come into their own.

However in the 3 years I've had the BMW, I honestly think I've had to drive on snow about 3 times.

[gIzzE]

It depends on the tyres though, I have had winters that are big blocks and they feel terrible, but then you get a Michelin Alpin Sport and it is basically a sniped version of their PS2, and that felt better in summer than the FK452's it replaced, so I left them on all year.

You still get good and bad tyres in winter versions too.

[Kerr]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

It depends on the tyres though, I have had winters that are big blocks and they feel terrible, but then you get a Michelin Alpin Sport and it is basically a sniped version of their PS2, and that felt better in summer than the FK452's it replaced, so I left them on all year.

You still get good and bad tyres in winter versions too.

I honestly can't remember what they were. Whatever the BMW dealer put on.

[G82Dude]

I would like to know with those who have F3x x-drive cars, how they perform in the snow and ice this/next year with summer and winter tyres (if they swap them).

Presumably x-drive with summer tyres would work and make the car drivable...

[gIzzE]

I drive a 4x4 and on summer tyres it is even worse!!

It is a 2 tonne truck, trying to stop that on snow and ice is lethal.

The only advantage is pulling away.


2 years ago I had to leave my A6 Quattro in the garage and take the 123d out as that was the car with winter tyres fitted.


4x4 is better in wet though as you have more chance of getting traction and getting the power down.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Amazing stuff Mob, it's stories of survival such as yours that are so inspiring.

A driver prepared to run the risk of running summer tyres in the depth of winter is up there with the stories of Sir Ranulph Fiennes, and his struggles in the Arctic.

Well done Sir

Lol you know me Ian, love playing with fire.

But seriously it wasn't that bad. The council here are pretty good at gritting, and all the roads around me are usually cleared by the next morning. So driving wasn't that hard at all.

I guess if the roads were fucked for longer then i'd be tempted with the winters.

[parapaul]

Originally Posted by Kerr

I know at a certain point they are better, but it certainly isn't the 7 degrees as claimed.

I think that's the conclusion I've come to as well. Last winter wasn't actually that cold. Yesterday morning, minus 4 degrees outside and the car didn't put a foot wrong.

Admittedly, it probably wouldn't have put a foot wrong on the summer tyres either, but compared to their shocking grip in +7 degrees on the day I swapped them over, it was like a different car.

To address a couple of points that keep coming up:

"I've never needed them before and I'm still alive"

True. So am I. Nobody is saying summer tyres will kill you. What we're saying, and this simply cannot be argued with because it's proven, is that in winter, winter tyres will give you better grip. I hope I never need to do an emergency stop in the snow. I hope nobody else does, either. If I do, though, I know my car will stop a good few car lengths before it would have done on summer tyres. Whether there's another car in front, or a child in the road, or a dog runs out, whatever - I stand a better chance of not hitting it.

"If it snows I just won't drive"

If you have the luxury of a second car, that's great. If you have the luxury of choosing not to go to work, that's great too. However, most normal people DON'T have a spare car. There may well be two or more cars in each household, but they aren't extra cars. Wives, girlfriends, kids own them and will need them to carry on their normal lives. Most normal people DON'T have the option not to go to work. If I don't go to work, I don't get paid. If I decided to sit at home every time it snowed, I wouldn't have been able to pay the mortgage for 4 months out of the last 2 years.

"I'll be ok, I'll just drive more carefully"

This works, but only up to a point. Main roads are generally fine, they're well gritted and the volume of traffic keeps them relatively clear. The place most people get stuck is on residential streets where the gritters don't pass, and there's very little traffic. I live on a cul-de-sac, which has a slight gradient. Even with winter tyres I've had to leave my car on the main road and walk the last few minutes home, because as soon as it snows, the road outside my house turns into an ice rink of compacted snow. The most careful, skilful driving in the world can't create traction where there is none.

"I'll save my money"

I see the argument here. Yes, it's an outlay of several hundred pounds (or more if you're buying a second set of wheels too). If you're the sort of person who changes their car every couple of years then it probably does seem expensive. However:
a) While the winter tyres are fitted, you aren't wearing down the summer tyres so they'll last an extra few months.
b) Because they're only fitted for a few months they'll last ages. After 4000 miles over the first winter I had them, my winters still had 7mm of tread. Even planning to change them at 4mm, that gives me 4 years' worth of use out of them.
c) If you change the car, you can sell the tyres (and wheels) second hand, either here or ebay, and recoup a large chunk of the cost.

Winter tyres are a legal requirement in other countries

As I understand it (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) they're not a legal requirement per se. However, should you be involved in an accident in winter, and it's shown that your lack of grip due to summer tyres is even a partial cause, then the book will be thrown at you, hard.

IMO there's no difference between not having winter tyres fitted in winter, and having bald tyres or no brakes in summer. You might be fine, you might always have been fine, you might never have a problem - but it's sure as hell not the safest thing to do.

[MrPogle]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

Presumably x-drive with summer tyres would work and make the car drivable...

This video shows you exactly how well it would work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

[Jase 320d]

Originally Posted by parapaul

I think that's the conclusion I've come to as well. Last winter wasn't actually that cold. Yesterday morning, minus 4 degrees outside and the car didn't put a foot wrong.

Admittedly, it probably wouldn't have put a foot wrong on the summer tyres either, but compared to their shocking grip in +7 degrees on the day I swapped them over, it was like a different car.

To address a couple of points that keep coming up:

"I've never needed them before and I'm still alive"

True. So am I. Nobody is saying summer tyres will kill you. What we're saying, and this simply cannot be argued with because it's proven, is that in winter, winter tyres will give you better grip. I hope I never need to do an emergency stop in the snow. I hope nobody else does, either. If I do, though, I know my car will stop a good few car lengths before it would have done on summer tyres. Whether there's another car in front, or a child in the road, or a dog runs out, whatever - I stand a better chance of not hitting it.

"If it snows I just won't drive"

If you have the luxury of a second car, that's great. If you have the luxury of choosing not to go to work, that's great too. However, most normal people DON'T have a spare car. There may well be two or more cars in each household, but they aren't extra cars. Wives, girlfriends, kids own them and will need them to carry on their normal lives. Most normal people DON'T have the option not to go to work. If I don't go to work, I don't get paid. If I decided to sit at home every time it snowed, I wouldn't have been able to pay the mortgage for 4 months out of the last 2 years.

"I'll be ok, I'll just drive more carefully"

This works, but only up to a point. Main roads are generally fine, they're well gritted and the volume of traffic keeps them relatively clear. The place most people get stuck is on residential streets where the gritters don't pass, and there's very little traffic. I live on a cul-de-sac, which has a slight gradient. Even with winter tyres I've had to leave my car on the main road and walk the last few minutes home, because as soon as it snows, the road outside my house turns into an ice rink of compacted snow. The most careful, skilful driving in the world can't create traction where there is none.

"I'll save my money"

I see the argument here. Yes, it's an outlay of several hundred pounds (or more if you're buying a second set of wheels too). If you're the sort of person who changes their car every couple of years then it probably does seem expensive. However:
a) While the winter tyres are fitted, you aren't wearing down the summer tyres so they'll last an extra few months.
b) Because they're only fitted for a few months they'll last ages. After 4000 miles over the first winter I had them, my winters still had 7mm of tread. Even planning to change them at 4mm, that gives me 4 years' worth of use out of them.
c) If you change the car, you can sell the tyres (and wheels) second hand, either here or ebay, and recoup a large chunk of the cost.

Winter tyres are a legal requirement in other countries

As I understand it (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) they're not a legal requirement per se. However, should you be involved in an accident in winter, and it's shown that your lack of grip due to summer tyres is even a partial cause, then the book will be thrown at you, hard.

IMO there's no difference between not having winter tyres fitted in winter, and having bald tyres or no brakes in summer. You might be fine, you might always have been fine, you might never have a problem - but it's sure as hell not the safest thing to do.

They can't throw the book at you if you have normal tyres on as its not a legal requirement, aslong as the tread level is legal you are fine

[MrPogle]

Originally Posted by Jase 320d

They can't throw the book at you if you have normal tyres on as its not a legal requirement, aslong as the tread level is legal you are fine

A 30 second Internet search reveals that some European countries mandate winter tyres, some don't care and some recommend them and fine you if you cause problems because you have summer tyres in winter conditions.

[Jase 320d]

Not a legal requirement in the UK

[MrPogle]

Originally Posted by Jase 320d

Not a legal requirement in the UK

True but Parapaul said "In other countries".

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by Jase 320d

Not a legal requirement in the UK

I don't think it should be either, however, I do think those that drive on summer tyres in snow should be fined and points added if they cause an accident. Same as bald tyres, no brakes etc.

I don't think anyone can argue with that.

It would make people think about the suitability of their cars a bit more.

[rs32]

^^ yep agree with that Gizze.

There's also something in here about the net result of fitting winter tyres and making the assumption that it means maximum grip is available in all types of cold / wintery conditions. Winter tyres don't mean you can push the car to the max, it just means you have an extra degree of safety when you're driving according to the conditions.

Will be interesting to see how they behave and perform when the wheels turn up from Germany next week.

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by MrPogle

This video shows you exactly how well it would work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

Interesting video. Although a little extreme. If you needed to drive up an incline like that in the snow, then it would have to be an emergency.

I'm talking about normal roads/slight incline which in normal circumstances would defeat a rear wheel drive car (but not a front wheel drive).

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I don't think it should be either, however, I do think those that drive on summer tyres in snow should be fined and points added if they cause an accident. Same as bald tyres, no brakes etc.

I don't think anyone can argue with that.

Seriously?

You don't propose mandating winter tyres, but suggest that those running summer tyres in snow should be prosecuted if they cause an accident!

Could you give a brief precis on how that would work, along with the myriad of mitigating factors that an accused could use in their defence.

Have you started on the alcohol earlier today than is the norm?

[Jase 320d]

Smoking crack i think

[MrPogle]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

I'm talking about normal roads/slight incline which in normal circumstances would defeat a rear wheel drive car (but not a front wheel drive).

The point that seems to be being missed here is that 4x4s offer almost no extra grip, they only offer extra traction. Traction isn't really important because it only effects whether you get stuck or not. Nobody (generally) dies.

Grip is important because it determines braking and steering which is where the damage happens.

All cars have 4-wheel braking and 2-wheel steering.

[raj55]

Excellent views supporting winter tyres during winter months from all of you. Here are my few additional points. Having driven cars in UK during the 80's without winter tyres and having had the pleasant experience of driving in Sweden for the past twenty years with winter tyres here are my few cents worth!

1. If you want to ditch your BMW and take the other car during winter, remember even the other car needs a set of winter tyres, so why not your favourite car (BMW) with winter tyres ( this ofcourse does not apply to folk who have a tractor or a dozer as the second car, just joking!)

2. The four wheel drive cars without winter tyres are not a safe alternative to a car with winter tyres. They will still skid off the road on turns and on speed. I did that with Toyota RAV 4 when I was surprised by early snow, a few years ago.

3. The winter tyres have softer rubber and they wear out a little quicker but the winter driving season is the shorter season and it will last.

4. all winter tyres need changing after a few years since the rubber gets harder with time and the winter grip advantage is lost.

5. Always wash your winter tyres after your winter season (to wash off grit and salt) and keep it in a dark place. They last longer.

6. there are three kinds of winter tyres.
(a) studded winter tyres with metal studs. They are for extreme winter conditions with snow and icy roads. They have a great grip and short stopping distance. They make a lot of noise but save lives. I would not live in northern or central Sweden without them in winter. In some countries like Germany they are not allowed since they destroy roads and maintanance cost increases.

(b) non studded, soft winter tyres for extreme winter (read "nordic non studded winter tyres"). These have got better with years and are almost trying to knock out the studded tyres from their lofty position, but not quite because the non studded tyres are not that good on ice. They have soft rubber and special tread pattern like "sipes". I live in the south of Sweden and both our cars have this kind tyre during winter. The law here requires that you have winter tyres during winter starting from 1st of Dec. Most Swedes have allready changed to winter tyres in middle of november. The nordic winter tyres are probably not available in UK or Germany.

(c) non studded soft rubber winter tyres for the continent (read "winter tyres for the continent of Europe"). These are a sort of compromise between the summer tyres and non studded nordic winter tyres. The rubber here is not as soft as the true winter tyres and the tread pattern is slightly different. They are cheaper, last a little longer than the true nordic winter tyres. They are OK for snow but ice performance is not good. They are available all over Europe and these are the tyres that most of you from UK and Germany would be buying in your tyre shops. They are still better and safer than summer tyres. I would not like to be seen in them here beacuse our winter is a lot harsher and longer, demanding more grip and shorter stopping distance.

7. Always use same type of winter tyres on all your wheels. Don't mix and match!

8. The tyres with the best preserved treds at the rear wheels for better stability.

9. Don't go crazy even if you have winter tyres. You can not change the laws of physics.

10. BMW E90 series with winter tyres and stability programme are great winter cars. Old arguements against rear wheel driven cars and BMWs during winter does not hold any more.

[IanS100]

Originally Posted by rs32

^^ yep agree with that Gizze.

There's also something in here about the net result of fitting winter tyres and making the assumption that it means maximum grip is available in all types of cold / wintery conditions. Winter tyres don't mean you can push the car to the max, it just means you have an extra degree of safety when you're driving according to the conditions.

Will be interesting to see how they behave and perform when the wheels turn up from Germany next week.

The "Max" is a variable depending on weather, road condition, circumstances and tyres fitted etc so pushing to the "Max" is always going to be a dangerous passtime regardless

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Seriously?

You don't propose mandating winter tyres, but suggest that those running summer tyres in snow should be prosecuted if they cause an accident!

Could you give a brief precis on how that would work, along with the myriad of mitigating factors that an accused could use in their defence.

Have you started on the alcohol earlier today than is the norm?

Quite simple, same as many other countries, if you are in an accident during winter conditions wearing summer tires you will be fined and if you are found to be the cause the fine is doubled.

They do throw the book at you if you cause a hold up because you are not on suitable tyres, and the consequences for causes an accident can be pretty harsh for not wearing the correct tyres.


German law, somewhere in the middle compared with say France and Finland......

http://www.baumholder.army.mil/sites...owTiresLaw.pdf