Is there a Vorsteiner Lip Replica yet?

[CatchM3]

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by hunter399

You are truly ignorant.

I have personally been to the Vorsteiner facility and have personally confirm that ALL VORSTEINER products are infact made in California.

So why dont you stop talking out of your ass and actually educate yourself.

Breath..........relax!

Quick question for you hunter...

...What do you think about the information that Oshin has presented (..i.e..material construction, misrepresentation, etc.)?

[Hunter399]

Im very relaxed, it just bothers me to see you guys complaining and stating "facts" that are simply not true.

[Hunter399]

For those of you guys who don’t know this AC Schnitzer, Hamann, 3D Design, Rinspeed, Wald, Tech Art and a lot more all use glass to structurally reinforce their carbon fiber pieces. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and is pretty much a standard in the carbon composite industry. BMW even uses chopped fiberglass as the core on all the E46 M3 CSL, M6 trunks for instance which is called SMC. In fact most high end boats even use fiberglass and foam to reinforce their carbon body panels.

Take a look at the back of the 3D carbon fiber front spoiler for example. It is a wet lay piece not dry vacuum bagged and costs more than the Vorsteiner piece. 3d Design uses the cheapest chopped strand fiberglass to reinforce their carbon fiber parts.

The main difference is whether a part is a wet lay part or vacuum bagged part which is normally 2-3 times the cost of a wetlay carbon part due to its high fiber to resin compression ratio that makes the part stronger, lighter and better looking.

The Vorsteiner parts are very strong and durable and I personally love the quality of all their parts that I have had on all my Bimmers.

Lets just move on to another topic and get on with our life.

[DICKER 1]

Typically,

I would not purchase a 2nd party c/f from a company like VS. There are just too many variables. Once i purchased from them before i knew something was up with there supposed mass production items

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by hunter399

Im very relaxed, it just bothers me to see you guys complaining and stating "facts" that are simply not true.

I'm not complaining nor stating 'facts' about VRS. What I am attempting to do is help extract answers from the company in question. I'm sure that VRS does produce parts in California. As I stated in a previous post, I know somebody who used to work at VRS. If location is the issue that has you so bothered, then you are really overlooking the core issue here.

Originally Posted by hunter399

For those of you guys who don’t know this AC Schnitzer, Hamann, 3D Design, Rinspeed, Wald, Tech Art and a lot more all use glass to structurally reinforce their carbon fiber pieces. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and is pretty much a standard in the carbon composite industry. BMW even uses chopped fiberglass as the core on all the E46 M3 CSL, M6 trunks for instance which is called SMC. In fact most high end boats even use fiberglass and foam to reinforce their carbon body panels.

Take a look at the back of the 3D carbon fiber front spoiler for example. It is a wet lay piece not dry vacuum bagged and costs more than the Vorsteiner piece. 3d Design uses the cheapest chopped strand fiberglass to reinforce their carbon fiber parts.

The main difference is whether a part is a wet lay part or vacuum bagged part which is normally 2-3 times the cost of a wetlay carbon part due to its high fiber to resin compression ratio that makes the part stronger, lighter and better looking.

The Vorsteiner parts are very strong and durable and I personally love the quality of all their parts that I have had on all my Bimmers.

Lets just move on to another topic and get on with our life.

Thanks for your response!

[Hunter399]

Thanks for your response![/QUOTE]

Glad I could be of assistance!

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by hunter399

Im very relaxed, it just bothers me to see you guys complaining and stating "facts" that are simply not true.

lol i dont wanna know how u're like when ur mad bro... maybe jizz or something to relax more

jkjk

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I'm remaining impartial here Bob. You've totally circumvented the findings by attempting to rip into Oshin for exposing VRS. It would appear that the parts are not what they are claimed to be. Maybe Oshin ruined his lip while driving, so he decided to cut into a damaged VRS part, and was surprised at his findings. Nevertheless, his purpose for cutting into the part is irrelevant. What is relevant is that VRS over-charges for a part that isn't what it is claimed to be. How about we address that issue specifically.

I know of an individual who used to work at VRS, and who could produce these parts at a fraction of the cost while maintaining the coveted VRS fitment/quality. After all, he used to make VRS parts, and I've purchased tons of parts from him for my bike. He'd just need to make a mold. Hmmmmmmm!!!???!

My position is that it is morally wrong to just copy another company's parts for profit. I run my life AND my company with the rule of doing no harm to anyone else. It IS common for companies to research what their competitors are doing and try to improve on their designs. That is different than making a replica part and, in this case, marketing it as a replica part. There is not a single product on my website that takes money out of the pockets of a company trying to compete in this market.

I realize when I respond to these kinds of threads that I run the risk of alienating some customers, but, the reality is, if they will not spend the money to have only the highest-quality, brand named parts, I probably would never have had their business, anyway. What I HOPE is that those of you that care about morals and trusting their business to a dealer that takes my position, is dealing with someone that would also do no harm to them as a customer. If someone adjusts their morals to steal designs from a rival company, do you trust their morals are high enough to provide them with your personal financial data and that they won't rip you off, as well?

Those that lurk and observe, I hope that you see I'm as honest as anyone and my position on this topic should support this.

Bob

PS...hunter399 provides all the info necessary to respond to Oshin02's post about the quality of Vorsteiner parts. Better materials and better manufacturing processes = higher cost. Just question the motives of anyone putting this much effort into trying to damage another company. How about we all adopt a "do no harm" policy?

[DICKER 1]

Typically

One would ask themself... Should i now eBay my C/f that i had for my e46 or allow my wife to continue to clean it when her Tennis friends come over?

Maybe I will even sell this to my neighbor....

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

My position is that it is morally wrong to just copy another company's parts for profit. I run my life AND my company with the rule of doing no harm to anyone else. It IS common for companies to research what their competitors are doing and try to improve on their designs. That is different than making a replica part and, in this case, marketing it as a replica part. There is not a single product on my website that takes money out of the pockets of a company trying to compete in this market.

I realize when I respond to these kinds of threads that I run the risk of alienating some customers, but, the reality is, if they will not spend the money to have only the highest-quality, brand named parts, I probably would never have had their business, anyway. What I HOPE is that those of you that care about morals and trusting their business to a dealer that takes my position, is dealing with someone that would also do no harm to them as a customer. If someone adjusts their morals to steal designs from a rival company, do you trust their morals are high enough to provide them with your personal financial data and that they won't rip you off, as well?

Those that lurk and observe, I hope that you see I'm as honest as anyone and my position on this topic should support this.

Bob

PS...hunter399 provides all the info necessary to respond to Oshin02's post about the quality of Vorsteiner parts. Better materials and better manufacturing processes = higher cost. Just question the motives of anyone putting this much effort into trying to damage another company. How about we all adopt a "do no harm" policy?

I understand and appreciate your ethical position Bob, but I must also take into account that you have a good relationship with VRS, so it behooves you to defend them.

You automatically accused another member of malicious activity without any solid proof whatsoever. As an outsider looking in, it seems as though you jumped the gun a bit. Oshin has done nothing but question the system which is essentially the same process that we, as a society, utilize when something doesn't seem quite right. To choose not to invesitgate a curiousity/situation/predicament effectively makes us cattle. Plain and simple!

With that being said, I look forward to reading more about this issue that has been presented.

I've got my ready!

[IND-Distribution]

As Hunter said, nearly every manufacturer uses Fiber Reinforced Polymer to back and reinforce their body parts. Some notables include Flossman (Designer and manufacturer of body parts for BMW racing applications including ALMS, LeMans, hillclimb, and so on),
BMW (M3 CSL), and many others.

Most competition car composite materials are not carbon alone, but will often utilize other materials like fiberglass, aluminum honeycomb, Jabrock (a type of wood), and other various materials where applicable.

Fiberglass is a good material for street car applications because any internal damage is easily repaired by any good body shop, and is not as sensitive to variances in directional changes of fibers and resin/fiber proportion as is CF- another couple of features that make it up much more "street friendly".


I think that the main beef people have with FRP is just this reputation it's gained as a cheap low grade material, when it's nothing of the sort. FRP is a perfectly acceptable material for use in all sorts of automotive applications- motorsport and otherwise, and I think if people realized that, they'd have no issues with the product.

[!Xoible]

^^ which confirms, all non-replica shit is just extremely overpriced for no reason.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

As Hunter said, nearly every manufacturer uses Fiber Reinforced Polymer to back and reinforce their body parts. Some notables include Flossman (Designer and manufacturer of body parts for BMW racing applications including ALMS, LeMans, hillclimb, and so on),
BMW (M3 CSL), and many others.

Most competition car composite materials are not carbon alone, but will often utilize other materials like fiberglass, aluminum honeycomb, Jabrock (a type of wood), and other various materials where applicable.

Fiberglass is a good material for street car applications because any internal damage is easily repaired by any good body shop, and is not as sensitive to variances in directional changes of fibers and resin/fiber proportion as is CF- another couple of features that make it up much more "street friendly".


I think that the main beef people have with FRP is just this reputation it's gained as a cheap low grade material, when it's nothing of the sort. FRP is a perfectly acceptable material for use in all sorts of automotive applications- motorsport and otherwise, and I think if people realized that, they'd have no issues with the product.

Great response as well. I'd assume that this explanation will clear things up for most people interested in this topic.

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

^^ which confirms, all non-replica shit is just extremely overpriced for no reason.

I'd have to agree here.

[Buschy]

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

As Hunter said, nearly every manufacturer uses Fiber Reinforced Polymer to back and reinforce their body parts. Some notables include Flossman (Designer and manufacturer of body parts for BMW racing applications including ALMS, LeMans, hillclimb, and so on),
BMW (M3 CSL), and many others.

Most competition car composite materials are not carbon alone, but will often utilize other materials like fiberglass, aluminum honeycomb, Jabrock (a type of wood), and other various materials where applicable.

Fiberglass is a good material for street car applications because any internal damage is easily repaired by any good body shop, and is not as sensitive to variances in directional changes of fibers and resin/fiber proportion as is CF- another couple of features that make it up much more "street friendly".


I think that the main beef people have with FRP is just this reputation it's gained as a cheap low grade material, when it's nothing of the sort. FRP is a perfectly acceptable material for use in all sorts of automotive applications- motorsport and otherwise, and I think if people realized that, they'd have no issues with the product.

This is a very good response and I agree 100%. If I didn't, I wouldn't have bought a Vorsteiner Lip. I believe Vorsteiner makes a great product. This is my first purchase of a Vorsteiner product and I am very happy with it. It has all the characteristics I was looking for when placing the order. It's exactly the shape I wanted on the front of my car, It's fitment was perfect to the shape of my car, It feels very durable and strong and able to take the abuse (aside from me physically driving into something) it will receive on the front of this car. These are the qualities I was paying for. I don't care where it was made. I have yet to see a specific claim anywhere from Vorsteiner that is was 100% CF with no Fiberglass or similar products. I will admit I was surprised to learn that it is not 100% CF. But only surprised, not disappointed, or cheated. Just suprised.

[nusevad]

Originally Posted by hunter399

You are truly ignorant.

I have personally been to the Vorsteiner facility and have personally confirm that ALL VORSTEINER products are infact made in California.

So why dont you stop talking out of your ass and actually educate yourself.

Good for you. Your barely old enough to have a opinion the the matter, so you can continue to pay for overpriced fiberglass and please get YOUR facts right before calling someone else ignorant and making yourself look like a fool. So stop embarrassing yourself and quit the leg humping.

And im not talking out of my ass, Vorstiner did start from making replicas that came from Taiwan, so they might have expanded their production to the U.S. but it still apparently did NOT IMPROVE the quality.

Do you know what it costs to actually make a lip/diffuser like that?

Ill tell you and spill the beans...probably around 150-250 labor and parts, so the profit margin is huge by their markup, you think they are doing you a favor? lol, I have friends in the aftermarket CF business and products with the "name brand" have the most ridiculous markup.

[Singletrack]

The time spent to design and perfect the lip is factored into the cost.

The mark-up, if that is accurate, really isn't any more absurd then any other luxury good.

Just to offer an alternative view : )

[Hunter399]

Originally Posted by FifthStreetz

Good for you. Your barely old enough to have a opinion the the matter, so you can continue to pay for overpriced fiberglass and please get YOUR facts right before calling someone else ignorant and making yourself look like a fool. So stop embarrassing yourself and quit the leg humping.

And im not talking out of my ass, Vorstiner did start from making replicas that came from Taiwan, so they might have expanded their production to the U.S. but it still apparently did NOT IMPROVE the quality.

Do you know what it costs to actually make a lip/diffuser like that?

Ill tell you and spill the beans...probably around 150-250 labor and parts, so the profit margin is huge by their markup, you think they are doing you a favor? lol, I have friends in the aftermarket CF business and products with the "name brand" have the most ridiculous markup.

Evidence please?

And please stop trying to call me a "kid", your the one who sounds very childish.

Take my advise and leave.

[J08M3]

Some people need to check the laws of supply and demand. Products are priced so that the number produced equals the number that are bought. Obviously Vorsteiner sells the amount of lips at this price that they want too. If they weren't selling enough of them they would simply lower the price. If they were selling more than they could produce then the price would be raised. Of course all of us like to get more for less, but clearly enough of us feel the price of this product is fair or there would be shelves full of lips and no one to buy them.

[nusevad]

Originally Posted by hunter399

Evidence please?

And please stop trying to call me a "kid", your the one who sounds very childish.

Take my advise and leave.

Its the truth, go ask them yourself. E46 M3 CSL "styled" front bumper/trunk/diffusers. Yea im sure vorstiner created the e46 CSL design

If you think a lip costs $1000 to make then your the one that is ignorant. Everything is bought in bulk, the CF weaves from China bought in rolls, resin bought in bulk, fiberglass,etc. In the end its a very cheap product to make and labor makes up for a big chunk. But its not that expensive to pay some illegals to do the easy/dirty work.

Im not trying, you are a kid, and yea ill take your "advise" and leave this thread.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Oshin02

u guys might find this interesting...Here is the pics I took of cuttign the lip and spreading it apart....Notice I took a few pics of the fiberglass inside and the fiberglass cloth I have laying around as a raw....The parts are black in the back do to the resin is pigmented (drops of black dye) black so it looks like the whole part is CF, instead. Vorsteiners pieces are basically FIBERGLASS wraped/overyaled in 1 layer of CF.

-Oshin P.










FIBERGLASS Backing

MORE FIBERGLASS backing

FIBERGLASS in the raw

More FIBERGLASS in the raw

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