Introducing- Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Big Brake Kits for the E92 M3

[jritt@essex]

Originally Posted by OC ///M

Thank you, the bolded portion of your response was all that was needed.
Not sure what percentage of your customers are on this forum, but would venture to say that >90.8% of e9x M3 owners drive their cars on the street, at least occasionally.
FYI- I wasn't aware that this kit was not intended for road use.
Have a day.

No worries. I much prefer complete transparency. Many companies gloss over or talk around topics. I'd rather give the straight, complete answer, and the reasoning behind it. We want our customers to ultimately be satisfied, hence my suggestion that maybe we can help come up with some type of solution. Feel free to shoot me an email to discuss further.

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i would venture to say that 99% of BBK's state that they are for "offroad use only." hell, probably 90% of any performance part is for "offroad use only."

Actually, while most emissions-related components and non DOT-compliant parts such as tires, etc. are for "off-road use only", most BBK's are designed and advertised as being used for street and track duty.

Both Stoptech and Brembo for example, advertise BBK's for street and track use.
http://www.brembo.com/en/car/sportin...braking-system
http://stoptech.com/products/big-brake-kits/overview

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i met you at mrf when i was getting my kit on. this is definitely one of those things that the community (reviews/testimonials) and manufacturer (more obvious disclaimers) could benefit from being up front about.

^Agreed! Yes, I remember you, I enjoyed our conversation that day.

Originally Posted by roastbeef

you have the 5040 kit in the rear? i don't have it yet, but i thought they were working on anti-rattle pad clips for the rear.

^ Yes, and that's exactly why I wanted to follow-up on this, I was told the same thing- that a spring clip would be forthcoming for the rears...

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

No worries. I much prefer complete transparency. Many companies gloss over or talk around topics. I'd rather give the straight, complete answer, and the reasoning behind it. We want our customers to ultimately be satisfied, hence my suggestion that maybe we can help come up with some type of solution. Feel free to shoot me an email to discuss further.

Thank you.
Please don't misinterpret my posts here as being confrontational. I am delighted with the weight savings, performance, cost and ease of maintenance/replacement of your product...it is only lacking an anti-rattle spring clip for the rears. With a clip it would actually be perfectly usable for both street and track...not sure if your new website includes a disclaimer or not, but as an early adopter and someone who has already gone through four different BBK kits on the e92 platform, I can assure you I was unaware that this kit was designed for track use only.

...thank you for clarifying that this kit is not recommended for street use.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by OC ///M

^ Yes, and that's exactly why I wanted to follow-up on this, I was told the same thing- that a spring clip would be forthcoming for the rears...

thats a huge bummer if they aren't going to come through with the rear clips. the clips would literally make this rear kit the perfect kit. i'm very happy with how quiet and unnoticeable the fronts are until i call upon them at the track.

[jritt@essex]

Understood gents. I will bring the spring clip issue back up in our next product planning meeting. Thanks for the level-headed discussion and feedback. I know gathering customer feedback is how we can continually improve our product.

Actually, while most emissions-related components and non DOT-compliant parts such as tires, etc. are for "off-road use only", most BBK's are designed and advertised as being used for street and track duty.

Both Stoptech and Brembo for example, advertise BBK's for street and track use.

Most companies advertise and market their kit as being street and track friendly, but when you read the fine print, you'll discover a disclaimer stating that they are indeed for off-road use only. I was the sales manager at StopTech for 5 years, so I'm intimately aware of their policies.

Here is a link to the StopTech installation manual for the e92 M3. Please read point 3 in the first paragraph of page 7...I've cut and pasted below:

(3) acknowledge that the brake kit and/or
components contained herein are intended only for off-street use, regardless of whether
said brake kit and/or components are approved by a state or the United States Department
of Transportation;

Please see Brembo's Racing catalog here. Look on page 14. Here's a snippet from their disclaimer:

Brembo’s “racing” products are
designed and manufactured to be
used exclusively in competitions and,
therefore, shall not be used on public
roads. Thus, Brembo shall not have
any liability whatsoever in
connection with the use of the
products in violation of such limits
and/or in connection with the normal
wear and tear of such products,
nor shall any “Product Liability”
apply in such cases

From Brembo's Gran Turismo (street BBK) catalog...part of their disclaimer below. They're basically telling you that before you install your brake kit you need prior authorization/homologation from your local government to comply with the local law, and that everything will be decided according to Italian law anyway if things go wobbly for you. Good luck on that one.

The Product shall be used in compliance
with laws and rules in effect in the states
and/or countries in which the vehicle
in which the Product is installed will be
operated, including but not limited to
compliance with the applicable traffic
rules and obtaining any prior necessary
authorization/homologation, approval
or license in such states and/or countries.
The Manufacturer is relieved of any and
all damages, claims and liabilities in case
the use of the Product does not comply
with such applicable laws and regulations.
This Limited Warranty shall be governed,
construed and interpreted in accordance
with Italian Law.

Finally, here's a snippet from the Wilwood disclaimer...note that they're even putting the fitment of the parts on the intended vehicle application solely on the customer:

Disclaimer of Warranty:

Purchasers recognize and understand that racing parts and equipment, such as disc brakes, hubs, etc. and all parts, inventory and services manufactured and/or sold by Wilwood Engineering, Inc. are exposed to many and varied conditions due to the manner in which they are installed and used. Purchasers and Wilwood Engineering, Inc. consciously desire to make their own bargain, irrespective of any court decision and purchasers agree upon good faith and in consideration for being allowed to purchase from Wilwood Engineering, Inc. said parts or services. Purchasers expressly acknowledge and understand that Wilwood Engineering, Inc. does not make any affirmation of fact or promise to purchaser, which relates to said parts, inventory, or services that becomes part of the basis of the bargain between Wilwood Engineering, Inc. and purchasers. Nor does Wilwood Engineering, Inc. make, or cause to be made to purchaser any description of the goods sold to purchaser, nor does Wilwood Engineering, Inc. make, or cause to be made, as part of the basis of the bargain with purchasers, any description or affirmation of fact concerning any sample or model of racing parts, and equipment inventory or service.

As further consideration for purchasers using Wilwood Engineering, Inc. racing parts and equipment any and all inventory and services, purchasers acknowledge that due to the differing conditions and circumstances under which all equipment and parts are installed and used, purchasers are not relying on Wilwood Engineering, Inc. skill or judgment to select or furnish the proper part or equipment. Purchasers expressly affirm they are relying upon their own skill or judgment to select and purchase suitable goods.

In summary, regardless of which brake kit you choose, you're ultimately assuming all risk and you're on your own. When you dig into the details, you'll find that's the case with pretty much all aftermarket parts in the USA. They're legally intended for off-road use only, and the buyer assumes all risk when installing them. The reason for that is our litigious society. Every business needs 17 pages of disclaimers to protect themselves. That's the unfortunate reality. In other territories (Germany/TUV comes to mind), there is more regulation and formal approval, but the downside is that you have far fewer choices on how you can modify your car. I've also seen some not-so-nice policies and practices related to the TUV approval, so that definitely isn't the ideal model.

So, your choice boils down to research, trust, experience, and customer service. The customer has to figure out which company and product can provide the correct parts and support for their needs. You're technically and legally going to be on your own if you run into problems, regardless of which manufacturer you choose. In our case however, we will typically bend over backwards to help and support our customers, since we are all racers and enthusiasts and love what we do. We've all been on the other side of a problem, and we always try to do the right thing to keep our customers happy.

[jritt@essex]

Originally Posted by OC ///M

Thank you.
Please don't misinterpret my posts here as being confrontational. I am delighted with the weight savings, performance, cost and ease of maintenance/replacement of your product...it is only lacking an anti-rattle spring clip for the rears. With a clip it would actually be perfectly usable for both street and track...not sure if your new website includes a disclaimer or not, but as an early adopter and someone who has already gone through four different BBK kits on the e92 platform, I can assure you I was unaware that this kit was designed for track use only.

...thank you for clarifying that this kit is not recommended for street use.

Holy smokes...four BBK's! Please tell me why ours is better. Thank you again for your purchase and reasonable requests...we appreciate it.

[jritt@essex]

^ Yes, and that's exactly why I wanted to follow-up on this, I was told the same thing- that a spring clip would be forthcoming for the rears...

Understood. For the record, we were indeed looking at potential solutions on for the CP5040, and we passed that along to our resellers when we were asked. We got quotes from several vendors. However, the ones we found required huge quantities to produce the parts, and the price was exorbitant. The topic got tabled at that point, and frankly got buried by other engineering issues. We'll have to bring it back to the fore and try to come up with something. I can't promise anything at this point, but we can take another shot at it. Thanks for your patience.

[roastbeef]

I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't buy the 5040 kit if you told me anti-rattle clips were not going to be made. I don't dd my m3, but I don't want to hear that crap when driving on the weekend.
Also, my girlfriend likes to go to track events with me and she would go nuts hearing that particular noise.

Thank you for revisiting this topic with Essex.

[redpriest]

Honestly, the minor clicking/clack that the pads make from time to time don't bother me. You get used to it. It's worth the price for no-compromise performance on the track.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Honestly, the minor clicking/clack that the pads make from time to time don't bother me. You get used to it. It's worth the price for no-compromise performance on the track.

i'll have to take a ride in your car one of these days... i don't know what it sounds like, but i know elyse gets annoyed with squeaks/rattles and that would bug her, and in turn, she would bug me. "because race car" isn't a valid reason for her.

[FogCityM3]

First off, I was one of the first customers on this forum to buy this kit 2 years ago and I have been 100% satisfied with its performance on the street and on the track. The lack of dust seals are a non-issue, never had any problems and I do a lot of driving in the twisties where there is quite a lot of tree debris/pine needles/dust/mud/water in some large elevation changes and varying temperature conditions. These are very durable brakes. The rear pad rattle is something that is present, but when I last replaced my Ferodo DS2500 pads (front and rear) the rattle was cut down significantly (I'd say down 50%) from previously. I think Ferodo made some slight design changes on the pad backing (despite same model number) that seemed to cut down the rear rattle. I can't speak for other pads.

Nonetheless the noise is only present with the windows down and over bumpy roads with imperfections that are noisy in the M3 to begin with and if you have a coilover kit, I think that noise is worse.

Jeff, something to consider is to sell the clips as a separate optional item with the cost passed through to the customer...if they are say $100 a pair, it might be worth for it some customers who want complete quiet. The other possibility and I don't know if you guys looked into this, are titanium shims that are sold by others..inserting one may cut down on the rattle more and they (purportedly) offer greater cooling. These are relatively low cost as well.

[OC ///M]

Like roastbeef, I don't DD my car, it's either date night/road trip or track.
I drive with the windows up and the piercing CLAK-CLAK (heard over an Akra Evo) over every road imperfection is a problem for me.
Time to research the aforementioned shims, thanks for that tip, FogCity. Also, interesting to hear your feedback on the new set of DS2500's...

[jritt@essex]

Jeff, something to consider is to sell the clips as a separate optional item with the cost passed through to the customer...if they are say $100 a pair, it might be worth for it some customers who want complete quiet. The other possibility and I don't know if you guys looked into this, are titanium shims that are sold by others..inserting one may cut down on the rattle more and they (purportedly) offer greater cooling. These are relatively low cost as well.

Thanks for the input...A good idea, but offers some problems: If we had to order a huge stack of these, they would have to be purchased up front. Then if we tried charging $100 for a tiny piece of metal, we would be crucified by those who want the product for charging too much, ripping them off, etc. These are the type of "can't win" situations that are a daily reality in our business. It's really no different than everyone perpetually asking for a magic brake pad that will be perfectly silent, produce no dust, feel amazing, and run the 24 Hours of Le Mans with no visible wear...oh, and it has to cost $26.99. Physics and reality should just stay out of the way.

The vertical or longitudinal movement of the pad is what would typically cause a rattle. The ti shim just takes up slack between the pistons and pad backing plate, but it really shouldn't help with rattle. A ti shim is designed as a heat barrier. Road calipers with aluminum pistons use a ti shim as a crutch to prevent heat soak in the pistons and fluid. Since our calipers have ventilated stainless pistons, they are already great at rejecting heat. A ti shim doesn't offer much incremental value in our case.

[redpriest]

This is interesting, because I haven't noticed any rattle coming from the back of my 5040 kit, but I notice it from the 9660 fronts. I wonder if I'm just not realizing it's there? I tried to listen for it last night on my commute home, but even going over most bumps, I wouldn't even hear the fronts. I would have to hit it just right.

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

The vertical or longitudinal movement of the pad is what would typically cause a rattle. The ti shim just takes up slack between the pistons and pad backing plate, but it really shouldn't help with rattle. A ti shim is designed as a heat barrier. Road calipers with aluminum pistons use a ti shim as a crutch to prevent heat soak in the pistons and fluid. Since our calipers have ventilated stainless pistons, they are already great at rejecting heat. A ti shim doesn't offer much incremental value in our case.

^Thank you for confirming this, essentially Ti shims create a gap between the pistons and pad and prevent "knock-back", but do not necessarily stifle the vertical or longitudinal movement of the pad.

Originally Posted by redpriest

This is interesting, because I haven't noticed any rattle coming from the back of my 5040 kit, but I notice it from the 9660 fronts. I wonder if I'm just not realizing it's there? I tried to listen for it last night on my commute home, but even going over most bumps, I wouldn't even hear the fronts. I would have to hit it just right.

^What kind of pads are you running?

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by OC ///M

^Thank you for confirming this, essentially Ti shims create a gap between the pistons and pad and prevent "knock-back", but do not necessarily stifle the vertical or longitudinal movement of the pad.



^What kind of pads are you running?

Ferodo DS2500s on the street. Ferodo DS1.11 at the track. It's a snug fit, so maybe there's less opportunity to rattle?

[ajshanny]

I am not hearing much rattle in the rear and I am runnjng the CP5040 back there. I did have a highly annoying noise upfront running two different types of pads (not at the same time) in the CP5060, which the anti rattle clips completely eliminated. That said, the clips are a bit tricky to install because i understand they are made for a caliper that has slightly different dimensions. Would love it if the clips were not necessary up front, but I have no issues with the rears. In terms of performance these brakes are phenomenal. I really cannot understand why any amateur driver would ever need the Pro 5000R kit when these are cheaper and lighter, and allow more wheel clearance.

[jritt@essex]

We just finished up some great new videos on our Competition BBK's. We walk through each of the kit components and look at the shortcomings of road brakes when used on the track. Check them out below...they're worth a watch, and more to come!

Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Brake Kits Part I

Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Brake Kits Part II

[jritt@essex]

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

I currently have brembo 380mm all around and would like to know the main difference between them and you're kit if there would be much benefit changing.

[Ant Man]

I'm running the front and rear kit with Ferodo DS2500 pads. My installer said no anti-rattle clips were provided. They have used some grease / paste and I've not noticed any rattles or noises from the brakes at all from my initial runs of circa 60 miles.

During this time I've driven on several poorly maintained roads, with plently of broken surfaces, expansion joints, etc and no noise from the brakes that I'm aware of. I've performed the running-in actions too as per the instructions.

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by OM VT3

I currently have brembo 380mm all around and would like to know the main difference between them and you're kit if there would be much benefit changing.

Not sure I understand what you mean by "main" difference or your use of the word "you're", but the most important differences are how light and how robust this AP kit is compared to standard Brembo, Stoptech and other aftermarket BBK's.

I've run a few iterations of the 380 GT kit, it's not even a close comparison. AP crushes it.

Benefits over the 380GT BBK:

1. Significant reduction of un-sprung weight!!!
2. Higher rotor vane count
3. Significant reduction of time and effort to swap pads
4. There are no dust boots to have to "maintain"
5. no paint-chipped calipers to contend with
6. Significant increase in caliper clearance inside wheel barrel (more wheel options)
7. Unwavering consistency on track (using AP w DS1.11's vs. 380GT w multiple pad configs.)
8. Did I mention light weight?!!

This list goes on and on...Jeff and others can probably add to this.
Watch the videos above, they do a great job of explaining all of the details.