[MTWO]

You can’t control conditions at all for any tests you’re mentioning. Randoms posting random situations/logs. Car could be heat soaked prior to a run, other car may not be, intercooler could be heat soaked, no one posts ambient conditions. Anyways I have nothing to gain out of this. PTF intercooler far outperforms stock, works better and is larger than CSF (opposite of what some stated), and also works better based on logs provided by others. I don’t have the funds to buy every intercooler someone on the interwebz claims is better at x y or z and do comparisons for you. If you need the data just spend the time and money on it, or don’t and enjoy whatever you feel works best in your opinion.

[AmuroRay]

So you don’t have a damn thing and you’re wasting everyone’s time.

Glad we got that settled.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by MTWO

You can’t control conditions at all for any tests you’re mentioning. Randoms posting random situations/logs. Car could be heat soaked prior to a run, other car may not be, intercooler could be heat soaked, no one posts ambient conditions. Anyways I have nothing to gain out of this. PTF intercooler far outperforms stock, works better and is larger than CSF (opposite of what some stated), and also works better based on logs provided by others. I don’t have the funds to buy every intercooler someone on the interwebz claims is better at x y or z and do comparisons for you. If you need the data just spend the time and money on it, or don’t and enjoy whatever you feel works best in your opinion.

So you don't have this intercooler?

Logs actually tell you quite a bit since they typically have ambient temps as well. You can tell if it's heat soaked etc based on ambient and then through the logs you can see how the temps drop, how quickly, how much.

Regardless of the factors the logs tell a huge story..

So again man.. do you or do you not have logs to back up your claims? At some point it goes beyond not wanting to help and being lazy IF YOU ACTUAKLY HAVE THE PTF IC to just hiding the fact that the numbers suck and you don't wanna admit you bought the wrong ic and don't have the money to just go swap a better one. I don't have a ton of money to swap parts either but at least I was lucky enough to upgrade to a known working ic and can post logs to back it up.

So yeah you may have nothing to gain but you lose if you deny posting data as it makes you look luke you know it's bad and trying to save face. (Which btw isn't working)

[n55david]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

So you don’t have a damn thing and you’re wasting everyone’s time.

Glad we got that settled.

Yeah, this 100%
He's the dude screaming the cows float inside his garage but won't show anyone in person just says that pics can be photoshoped and gets upset when people won't believe him.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by n55david

Unless you're willing to share the data you have to prove otherwise, the existing data doesn't paint the ptf in a very good light man. Thats facts, not opinion. You could simply post some logs and shut everyone up, you know? Has nothing to with a flow bench as that has nothing to do with intake air temps and entirely different conversion.

I agree. Lab tests are one thing, but finding a good real world test that can be compared is the most desirable.

Collecting engine logs in multi gear pulls from 1st through 4th provides much more IAT stress than a single 3rd or 4th gear pull. It should provide enough data spread to obtain valid comparisons between Intercoolers.

Is anyone keeping a data comparison spreadsheet on these intercoolers under discussion? I've got notes on some of them.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by johnung

I agree. Lab tests are one thing, but finding a good real world test that can be compared is the most desirable.

Collecting engine logs in multi gear pulls from 1st through 4th provides much more IAT stress than a single 3rd or 4th gear pull. It should provide enough data spread to obtain valid comparisons between Intercoolers.

Is anyone keeping a data comparison spreadsheet on these intercoolers under discussion? I've got notes on some of them.

I don't think anyone is. I'll be happy to do a multi gear run with my setup for reference etc

[MTWO]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

So you don’t have a damn thing and you’re wasting everyone’s time.

Glad we got that settled.

Got same as you LMAO

[MTWO]

Originally Posted by n55david

So you don't have this intercooler?

Logs actually tell you quite a bit since they typically have ambient temps as well. You can tell if it's heat soaked etc based on ambient and then through the logs you can see how the temps drop, how quickly, how much.

Regardless of the factors the logs tell a huge story..

So again man.. do you or do you not have logs to back up your claims? At some point it goes beyond not wanting to help and being lazy IF YOU ACTUAKLY HAVE THE PTF IC to just hiding the fact that the numbers suck and you don't wanna admit you bought the wrong ic and don't have the money to just go swap a better one. I don't have a ton of money to swap parts either but at least I was lucky enough to upgrade to a known working ic and can post logs to back it up.

So yeah you may have nothing to gain but you lose if you deny posting data as it makes you look luke you know it's bad and trying to save face. (Which btw isn't working)

So instead of nonsense, of course I have the intercooler, whose pic you think it was showing the PTF one and CSF side by side, wow!

Now:

1) which of you experts here has posted ambient temps as captured in a “log”?
2) which of you experts has posted those same logs in the same ambient conditions?
3) which of you experts has ensured that the intercooler core is at the same temp before doing a run with it?

Lets start there. I never said this intercooler is the end all be all or whatever it is you’re trying to make it sound like. Read again what I wrote above, its simple. Intercooler works great for me, is far better than stock, its bigger and better designed than CSF as shown in the pic I posted. If you’re here to tell me it doesn’t work way better than stock or that its smaller than the CSF (two things I claimed) then you need to show proof of this not me, but that’s ridiculous.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by n55david

I don't think anyone is. I'll be happy to do a multi gear run with my setup for reference etc

Which intercooler do you have installed right now? I have the PTF/BM3 installed which Jeremy posted some of my logs. I previously took logs using a Wagner EVO1. I'm looking for someone who can please do a 1st thru 4th log of a Wagner EVO2 for comparison.

I also have a MAD race intercooler still to test. And I'm trying to get more info on the Mishimoto intercooler. I've heard that the Wagner EVO3 is amazing. It's very expensive but it would be great to get some data on it for comparison if possible.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by MTWO

So instead of nonsense, of course I have the intercooler, whose pic you think it was showing the PTF one and CSF side by side, wow!

Now:

1) which of you experts here has posted ambient temps as captured in a “log”?
2) which of you experts has posted those same logs in the same ambient conditions?
3) which of you experts has ensured that the intercooler core is at the same temp before doing a run with it?

Lets start there. I never said this intercooler is the end all be all or whatever it is you’re trying to make it sound like. Read again what I wrote above, its simple. Intercooler works great for me, is far better than stock, its bigger and better designed than CSF as shown in the pic I posted. If you’re here to tell me it doesn’t work way better than stock or that its smaller than the CSF (two things I claimed) then you need to show proof of this not me, but that’s ridiculous.

Those pictures came from this thread:


https://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867014&highlight=Intercooler





(Pretty sure you have an M2, and that’s an M235i)

For you next questions - I collected all the data, I reviewed all the logs and I asked repeatedly, for conditions (ambient) mod lists, and driving impressions through PM, posts, etc.

Only 1 intercooler has been able to get 5F of ambient: VRSF race. (With gold wrapped Chargepipe)
Only 1 intercooler has consistently been able to keep IATs within 10-15F of ambient (depending on state of tune - 16/17 pump gas vs 18-21 pump + E85): VRSF Race

The CFS is about 20F - the Evo 3 can do 1 run at 15F - and averages out to 20-25F, the Evo 2 over 30F in the same conditions.

You’re welcome to compare your logs (ambient, state of tune or just boost level) vs anyone with a VRSF race and see who has a lower differential in IAT (iat - ambient temp) and who keeps them IATs from raising (the VRSF race will keep IATs stable without rising for over 10 seconds of WOT)

I pointed this out on the PTF thread and all over the forum - it has 12 fins per inch on the exterior - it doesn’t have the surface area to compete with something like the CFS, much less a race core.


So what logs did you review to make the statements you have?

[AmuroRay]

For good measure, I have a decent enough memory to name people who have the IC, and/or I’ve reviewed their logs:

movitiveman, Asianbill, Thejerememyman9, N55david,

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1909810&page=2

Here is a thread we review different intercooler logs, including a link to the difference in 14fins/inch to 18fins/inch. Again, the PTF has 12

[MTWO]

👍

[n55david]

Originally Posted by johnung

Which intercooler do you have installed right now? I have the PTF/BM3 installed which Jeremy posted some of my logs. I previously took logs using a Wagner EVO1. I'm looking for someone who can please do a 1st thru 4th log of a Wagner EVO2 for comparison.

I also have a MAD race intercooler still to test. And I'm trying to get more info on the Mishimoto intercooler. I've heard that the Wagner EVO3 is amazing. It's very expensive but it would be great to get some data on it for comparison if possible.

Vrsf race

[n55david]

Originally Posted by MTWO

👍

🤡

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by MTWO

So instead of nonsense, of course I have the intercooler, whose pic you think it was showing the PTF one and CSF side by side, wow!

Now:

1) which of you experts here has posted ambient temps as captured in a “log”?
2) which of you experts has posted those same logs in the same ambient conditions?
3) which of you experts has ensured that the intercooler core is at the same temp before doing a run with it?

Lets start there. I never said this intercooler is the end all be all or whatever it is you’re trying to make it sound like. Read again what I wrote above, its simple. Intercooler works great for me, is far better than stock, its bigger and better designed than CSF as shown in the pic I posted. If you’re here to tell me it doesn’t work way better than stock or that its smaller than the CSF (two things I claimed) then you need to show proof of this not me, but that’s ridiculous.

FYI, logs either have ambient temp in them, or they are recorded during the log and communicated with the post. On my various testing threads, the ambinet temp is in the graphs. In John's logs, for which i only posted 2 but have more, ambient temp was recorded. 1 2 and 3 above are controlled for to the extent possible when doing real world testing, especially when you are testing your personal investment in a product and want to validate its performance. Also, most ICs are judged based on IAT rise, so slight variation in ambient conditions (as long as you have them for context) isnt a huge issue. After all he did install this IC to try and upgrade his wagner, only to be disappointed in its performance. Obviously no one is saying this IC isn't better than stock lol... its just terrible for the price point.

Anyways, further discussion on this is pointless unless someone else is going to provide data/logs.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

I agree. Lab tests are one thing, but finding a good real world test that can be compared is the most desirable.

Collecting engine logs in multi gear pulls from 1st through 4th provides much more IAT stress than a single 3rd or 4th gear pull. It should provide enough data spread to obtain valid comparisons between Intercoolers.

Is anyone keeping a data comparison spreadsheet on these intercoolers under discussion? I've got notes on some of them.

Pm incoming

[lens]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Those pictures came from this thread:


https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...ht=Intercooler





(Pretty sure you have an M2, and that’s an M235i)

For you next questions - I collected all the data, I reviewed all the logs and I asked repeatedly, for conditions (ambient) mod lists, and driving impressions through PM, posts, etc.

Only 1 intercooler has been able to get 5F of ambient: VRSF race. (With gold wrapped Chargepipe)
Only 1 intercooler has consistently been able to keep IATs within 10-15F of ambient (depending on state of tune - 16/17 pump gas vs 18-21 pump + E85): VRSF Race

The CFS is about 20F - the Evo 3 can do 1 run at 15F - and averages out to 20-25F, the Evo 2 over 30F in the same conditions.

You’re welcome to compare your logs (ambient, state of tune or just boost level) vs anyone with a VRSF race and see who has a lower differential in IAT (iat - ambient temp) and who keeps them IATs from raising (the VRSF race will keep IATs stable without rising for over 10 seconds of WOT)

I pointed this out on the PTF thread and all over the forum - it has 12 fins per inch on the exterior - it doesn’t have the surface area to compete with something like the CFS, much less a race core.


So what logs did you review to make the statements you have?

I've been using ATM FMIC for a while with PS2 and it does very well, apparently CSF directly copied ATMs FMIC and got called out a while back for it.

But here's two fourth gear logs, basically back to back


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62cb...0b43079f4bec0e


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62cb...729b6f82863060


Temps outside was about 84F, I live on the east coast, so humidity is high and gas quality is almost equivalent to Cali 91 Oct.

I think the big thing is weight vs performance, you can't have a extremely light FMIC without sacrificing performance and vice versa, the VRSF race FMIC is the best in the market if you want stable temps, but it's also gigantic and weighs alot, while the CSF/ATM/EVO are lighter but temps are less stable, it really depends what you use what for, either track or drag racing.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by chaungo

I've been using ATM FMIC for a while with PS2 and it does very well, apparently CSF directly copied ATMs FMIC and got called out a while back for it.

But here's two fourth gear logs, basically back to back


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62cb...0b43079f4bec0e


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62cb...729b6f82863060


Temps outside was about 84F, I live on the east coast, so humidity is high and gas quality is almost equivalent to Cali 91 Oct.

Ambient can't be 84F - that would mean it's over 100% efficient, which an air to air intercooler can't do. Weird log too - you're massively off boost target after 6000RPM.

But a PS2 16 psi =/= stock turbo 16 PSI. Low 60% WGDC means that this turbo isn't working hard at that boost level, which means less heat. On the second log, the IAT sees a lot of movement, which is not good, it increases 10F during a single gear pull.


It's not just weight (which functions as thermal capactity - basically how much heat the core can hold before it overheats), it's surface area, which allows the core to have a larger contact patch with the ambinet air and cool down quicker. The ATM was a revolutionary core - the essentially developed the Stepped core design on the E90 platform (prior to this, all the cores were just the same profile as stock, but more depth) And their stepped core is actually one solid core, not two welded together like everyone else on the market. How much does the ATM weigh, 24lbs? The VRSF Competition is about 27lbs - the Race 33lbs. I think the Evo 2 is around 17-18Lbs.

CFS is nearly identical on the exterior, but it does have more fin density - it's about 16 fins per inch on the front rows vs the 13 fins per inch on the ATM. It's also two cores together instead of one. All in all, while it's a copy, from what I've seen, it does cool pretty well for what it is.

[lens]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ambient can't be 84F - that would mean it's over 100% efficient, which an air to air intercooler can't do. Weird log too - you're massively off boost target after 6000RPM.

But a PS2 16 psi =/= stock turbo 16 PSI. Low 60% WGDC means that this turbo isn't working hard at that boost level, which means less heat. On the second log, the IAT sees a lot of movement, which is not good, it increases 10F during a single gear pull.


It's not just weight (which functions as thermal capactity - basically how much heat the core can hold before it overheats), it's surface area, which allows the core to have a larger contact patch with the ambinet air and cool down quicker. The ATM was a revolutionary core - the essentially developed the Stepped core design on the E90 platform (prior to this, all the cores were just the same profile as stock, but more depth) And their stepped core is actually one solid core, not two welded together like everyone else on the market. How much does the ATM weigh, 24lbs? The VRSF Competition is about 27lbs - the Race 33lbs. I think the Evo 2 is around 17-18Lbs.

CFS is nearly identical on the exterior, but it does have more fin density - it's about 16 fins per inch on the front rows vs the 13 fins per inch on the ATM. It's also two cores together instead of one. All in all, while it's a copy, from what I've seen, it does cool pretty well for what it is.

My car is PWG, the off target boost drop up top is normal as this is a stage 2H 91 Oct multimap, any higher and you'll see a ton of timing corrections unfortunately, and as you know PWG boost control is extremely difficult.

But second log, I knew IAT would rise as it was a back to back pull. Just checked back on that day, and it was 75F (24C), just felt like 84F due to sun and humidity.

Weight of the ATM FMIC is 23.4lbs.


I also did a 5th gear pull a while back as well, temps do creep up, but not as extreme.


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62b7...90c66f820398e4

[johnung]

Originally Posted by chaungo

My car is PWG, the off target boost drop up top is normal as this is a stage 2H 91 Oct multimap, any higher and you'll see a ton of timing corrections unfortunately, and as you know PWG boost control is extremely difficult.

But second log, I knew IAT would rise as it was a back to back pull. Just checked back on that day, and it was 75F (24C), just felt like 84F due to sun and humidity.

Weight of the ATM FMIC is 23.4lbs.


I also did a 5th gear pull a while back as well, temps do creep up, but not as extreme.


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=62b7...90c66f820398e4

Thanks for the information. If you get a chance please run some 1st through 4th gear logs. Jeremy had me do that to stress the intercoolers more that I've been testing. It helped with comparisons.

[LA1Z24]

Is there an IC testing thread with all the data? See all this has me wondering where the ER intercooler stacks up.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by LA1Z24

Is there an IC testing thread with all the data? See all this has me wondering where the ER intercooler stacks up.

AmuroRay probably has links to the main threads. The problem is there isnt a single IC thread that was created specifically to compare ICs, so whenever someone new comes along and asks about IC recommendations or a new IC is released it starts this huge debate again about which IC is the "best" and we can't just point back to a single place where all the information is available.

The bottom line though is if you already have an IC installed the best thing you can do is just log it and see how it performs, then we will know how it compares to other ICs based on IAT control and what tune are you running etc.

ER has a large frontal area but a thinner core so it has good heat transfer back to ambient but would need to see a long pull to determine how good it controls IATs