glitter, flakes, magnetic material in oil after some high RPM driving

[acarr6]

Originally Posted by TX

Man you have some serious patience. You're all the way to that point and haven't pulled the shells yet. I'd be chewing my fingers off waiting to back those bolts out....wish you the best outcome. and FYI if that shop messed up installing the pan, you should have a little chat with them. They have no business working on your car.

I wouldn't sleep until I knew, hahah.

[bmwm3s65]

I finally received my torque wrench today and after my family outing, went to work pulling half the shells so far. I first verified the arp 2000 rod bolts were torqued to at least 50ft lbs, then pulled and inspected the shell and journal, put arp lube on the bolts, assembly lube on the shells and reinstalled to 50ft lbs. So far no damage. I'll post some pics of the BE bearings soon. I only pulled and took pictures of the bottom shells, i moved the piston to look at the top shell but did not pull it unless it looked like it was installed wrong. So far all the bearings i pulled look brand new with 28k on them.

[TX]

thank you for the update. Please keep us posted.

[bmwm3s65]

ok. i found where at least some of where the bearing material originated from. on my next crank rotation i ended up exposing the first 2 sets of rod bearings, i guess cylinders 1 and 2. After confirming torque i loosened the cap and tried to get it off but it wouldn't budge so i figured i must have found the problem, after tapping it with a rubber mallet several times i was able to get the cap off but without the rod bearing. Both upper and lower rod bearings were stuck to the journal. i was like oh crap, they are probably welded to the crank, however, using a dentist pick, i carefully pulled at the seating tab and managed to pull both shells of the journal. The shells look they took most of the damage. The journal doesn't look horrible in my opinion, slightly scored. The shells have mostly black scoring only in the center. At this point i am not sure how to proceed.Should i assume, based on the black scoring to the middle of the shell, the mains may have just started to fail, reducing/blocking oil to that bearing or some foreign material managed to get into the shell and that caused the scoring? if no additional damage can be seen, should I buy new rod bearings and replace and hope for the best? Should I attempt to lightly lap/polish the journal? Not sure if that is even possible without re-heat treating it.

[deansbimmer]

I would be concerned that the main bearing above those shells had started to fail and blocked oil flow to those rod bearings.

[akkando]

I guess if it's debris from the dip stick install that got into the bearings then your main bearings could be okay?

[CSBM5]

Hope the core qualifies and order a 4.2L rebuilt S65 from Carbahn?

[bmwm3s65]

Originally Posted by akkando

I guess if it's debris from the dip stick install that got into the bearings then your main bearings could be okay?

Based on the size of the debris from the original install and the clearances with the rod bearings, it does not look like it would be possible for that to occur. Deansbimmer indicated this when i spoke with him about it. And if it were possible, i would think it would get embedded in the babit before destroying the shells, and probably would have happened sooner. I am just a shade tree mechanic at best, but i agree with Deansbimmer, that the mains started to fail reduced oil flow to those shells. If the pictures pretty clearly show that i should not attempt to only replace the damaged bearings and put it back in service and that a tear down is 99.9% required at this point, then a used engine or a carbahn rebuild is probably the most logical at this point. I am leaning towards carbahn. Its a tough pill to swallow not knowing if the mains are what caused the rod bearings to truly fail. once i pull the engine, is it possible/worth attempting to inspect the mains myself? I am guessing i would have to pull the crank in order to inspect the mains and i don't think i could do that especially without messing up timing or something else and maybe that doesnt matter as long as the core is viable.

[deansbimmer]

If the main bearing spun in its saddle, then the engine wouldn't be a core candidate with anyone for rebuild.

[bmwm3s65]

that's because when a main spins it usually cracks the webbing in the saddle, correct? if that is the case and i were to take my engine out and pay to ship it to carbahn as a usable core, then It would behoove me to attempt to remove the bedplate my self to confirm the damage before wasting time and money to ship it out only for carbahn and for them to tell me the same thing? Else, take my chances with a used engine and sell my longblock as is to recoop some of the cost? it sounds like those are my options moving forward.

[bmwm3s65]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

If the main bearing spun in its saddle, then the engine wouldn't be a core candidate with anyone for rebuild.

Without removing the timing chain or tensioner, could i follow your Main bearing service DIY to just remove the bedplate and inspect half the mains? if none are stuck to the journal and the journal looks clean, is that enough of a confirmation to hopefully consider the core viable?

[wootloops]

Originally Posted by bmwm3s65

that's because when a main spins it usually cracks the webbing in the saddle, correct? if that is the case and i were to take my engine out and pay to ship it to carbahn as a usable core, then It would behoove me to attempt to remove the bedplate my self to confirm the damage before wasting time and money to ship it out only for carbahn and for them to tell me the same thing? Else, take my chances with a used engine and sell my longblock as is to recoop some of the cost? it sounds like those are my options moving forward.

I think you have the right idea here. I would want to tear down the engine first and find out how bad the damage is before shipping it off as a core. Would suck to drop a bunch of money on freight only to find that it was unusable.


Also when you get a chance would you mind posting the pics of the other rod bearings you pulled? Would be one of the few examples of aftermarket bearings (especially BE) pulled after installation to see the wear (or lack thereof).

[bmwm3s65]

Originally Posted by wootloops

I think you have the right idea here. I would want to tear down the engine first and find out how bad the damage is before shipping it off as a core. Would suck to drop a bunch of money on freight only to find that it was unusable.


Also when you get a chance would you mind posting the pics of the other rod bearings you pulled? Would be one of the few examples of aftermarket bearings (especially BE) pulled after installation to see the wear (or lack thereof).

Sure, here are all the other BE bearings i pulled so far, Cylinders 5,6,7 and 8. This is after 28k miles. Quick question, if i attempt to inspect the mains, i want to take apart as little as possible after the engine is out. Could i simply just remove the bedplate bolts in the correct order and pull the bedplate and get a good idea if the block is ok or would it require more to be taken apart?

[InnerBlueSkies]

All I have to say is I thought you were crazy when you started this thread. I would have just drove it and hoped for the best. You made the right decision, not entirely sure that the outcome will be any different, though I am hoping for the best for you💪

[djsilverjohnson]

I'm thinking the oil pump/front seal/timing chain would hold up the front of the crankshaft. Would the rear main seal housing hold up the rear? I don't know how much play is in the transmission input shaft. Look around the perimeter of the bed plate to see if anything is bolted to it, including the oil pump, front inner timing cover or the transmission bellhousing. Just some things to think about/look at until someone that knows responds!

[bmwm3s65]

It is with heavy heart that I am selling my car. I was originally going to attempt a stroker build, but I decided to put it back together and sell it as is. It still runs, however has slight rod knock. I listed it in the classifieds if anyone is interested. Thanks for all the support, I really, really appreciate it. I hope to get back into another M soon. Man, I am going to miss this car so much.

[DanMpower]

Originally Posted by bmwm3s65

ok. i found where at least some of where the bearing material originated from. on my next crank rotation i ended up exposing the first 2 sets of rod bearings, i guess cylinders 1 and 2. After confirming torque i loosened the cap and tried to get it off but it wouldn't budge so i figured i must have found the problem, after tapping it with a rubber mallet several times i was able to get the cap off but without the rod bearing. Both upper and lower rod bearings were stuck to the journal. i was like oh crap, they are probably welded to the crank, however, using a dentist pick, i carefully pulled at the seating tab and managed to pull both shells of the journal. The shells look they took most of the damage. The journal doesn't look horrible in my opinion, slightly scored. The shells have mostly black scoring only in the center. At this point i am not sure how to proceed.Should i assume, based on the black scoring to the middle of the shell, the mains may have just started to fail, reducing/blocking oil to that bearing or some foreign material managed to get into the shell and that caused the scoring? if no additional damage can be seen, should I buy new rod bearings and replace and hope for the best? Should I attempt to lightly lap/polish the journal? Not sure if that is even possible without re-heat treating it.

Is this the first documented case of BE bearings failing?

[TX]

Dan, While in the end the bearings were destroyed, I’m not convinced you could blame the bearings for failing. If the two rods failed side by side without obvious signs of installation error, it’s more likely there was oil starvation leading to ultimate failure. I don’t think we will really ever know unless the buyer of the car tears it down and proves or disproves the theory that the Upstream main failure caused oil starvation.

Edit- take note that the other inspected BE bearings on the engine showed basically no wear in 28k miles.

[bmwm3s65]

Originally Posted by TX

Dan, While in the end the bearings were destroyed, I’m not convinced you could blame the bearings for failing. If the two rods failed side by side without obvious signs of installation error, it’s more likely there was oil starvation leading to ultimate failure. I don’t think we will really ever know unless the buyer of the car tears it down and proves or disproves the theory that the Upstream main failure caused oil starvation.

Edit- take note that the other inspected BE bearings on the engine showed basically no wear in 28k miles.

I had a change of heart. I couldn't bring my self to sell it. So far I'm going to bring to a shop to repair or replace. Any know if it's worth checking to see if bmw would cover a portion of the replacement under goodwill?

[bmwm3s65]

Only the first cylinder rod bearing failed. I ended up replacing the failed rod bearing with one of my original oem rod bearings. It drove fine for about a mile then started knocking again so most likely #1 main failed.

[DanMpower]

Originally Posted by bmwm3s65

Only the first cylinder rod bearing failed. I ended up replacing the failed rod bearing with one of my original oem rod bearings. It drove fine for about a mile then started knocking again so most likely #1 main failed.

I thought when a main bearing fails, it doesn't knock but rather just seize up the motor completely.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by DanMpower

I thought when a main bearing fails, it doesn't knock but rather just seize up the motor completely.

Not necessarily. Initially the main bearing shell will overheat, gall, then drag and stick to the crank and spin in their saddle. At this point the drag may be too much for the engine (especially if at low rpm) and it will lock up. At any point thus far, the oil flow to the rods will have been interrupted. If the engine has stayed running, the same things will happen to the rod bearings and they will spin...and if the engine is still running it will eventually throw a rod out the side of the block.

I've seen engines with BE bearings fail, but only due to main failure.