[jpnh]

Originally Posted by David70

The margin BMW the corporation makes and the margin the independently owned dealer makes are different.

Also, if my company I also would care a lot more about profit than number of vehicles sold. So what if the volume is really high but we aren't making any money.

Of course the dealer and manufacturer are different

What I was saying is that BMW the manufacturer doesnt just enguage in a simple transaction of selling a car to a dealer that they mark up and sell for a certain % over cost to a customer

Thats ONE source of profit

Other sources of profit include incentives from BMW to dealerships and sales people for number of cars sold

There are other mechanisms that are used like holdbacks and other things but the POINT is that the margin between Invoice and MSRP isnt the actual margin/source of profit in car sales

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Relax, don't listen to some(one) on this forum cheering the demise of the bmw brand.

the entire industry is flat, barely growing, or declining. lexus is doing no better. audi has a much lower volume. take these sales in perspective

You didn't total your spreadsheets - so they are "noise". However, if I totalled your spreadsheets correctly....
YTD
1 Lexus - down 11,759
2. Audi - up 4,049
3. MB - up 5,476
4. BMW - down 17,884

PS, that puts MB at #1, Lexus at #2, and BMW at #3 for the year in luxury totals.

Demise? No, but the Ultimate Driving Machine? Not anymore.

[David70]

Originally Posted by doug_999

You didn't total your spreadsheets - so they are "noise". However, if I totalled your spreadsheets correctly....
YTD
1 Lexus - down 11,759
2. Audi - up 4,049
3. MB - up 5,476
4. BMW - down 17,884

PS, that puts MB at #1, Lexus at #2, and BMW at #3 for the year in luxury totals.

Demise? No, but the Ultimate Driving Machine? Not anymore.

Not following how sale volume and "Ultimate Driving Machine" are connected. We should desire the one that sells in the greatest volume (I'm headed out to look at a Camry right now)?

[raysspl]

More people carpooling, using Lyft, Uber, working remotely/telecommute

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by doug_999

You didn't total your spreadsheets - so they are "noise". However, if I totalled your spreadsheets correctly....
YTD
1 Lexus - down 11,759
2. Audi - up 4,049
3. MB - up 5,476
4. BMW - down 17,884

PS, that puts MB at #1, Lexus at #2, and BMW at #3 for the year in luxury totals.

Demise? No, but the Ultimate Driving Machine? Not anymore.

so.....

BMW (- 8.3%)
Mercedes (+0.7%)
Lexus (-5.3%)

look more closely- much of the decline in volume is from the 3 series, which is near the end of its life cycle. 3 series is down 25% ytd. it also accounts for >30% of the TOTAL sales volume of all bmw's. let's see, mb has a new c class, jaguar has a new xe, audi has a new a4 so that could mean less sales for a 3 series. If you look at sales of 3 series 7 years ago, you'd probably see significant declines vs the year before.

In fact, if you just took out the 3 series sales from 2015, and 2016, BMW is down 2.2% ytd, pretty much right in the middle of the other 2 makers.

nothing is really news here, no finger pointing, no jumping up and down, nothing to get terribly concerned about.

Now if the new 3 series comes out and it doesn't sell, then you have something huge to talk about.

[jondaman]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Two of BMW's high volume movers just got a complete makeover and LCI update. X1 and 3-series. They also just introduced the new 7-series.

The 3 series LCI was much too minimal in my opinion. Basically a set of new lights. The interior was still the worst in my opinion comparing to Benz and Audi.

[Nahlem]

Well 2017 might be good year with all the new announcement coming then but what BMW needs to do is adapt to the new markets wanting more hybrids more EV Cars and push out better technology faster they are slipping in some departments.

And maybe they should try to aim for companies that has car pooling and such considering we are moving more towards environment friendly attitude. Wich is a good thing we need to take care of nature or we are screwed in the end.

Home in Sweden there is a new idea being put forward that our gasoline prices will be index regulated by 2% upwards every year (This is not included if oil companies increase cost but just based on current values) every year until all cars are either hybrids or EVS. Its a way for them to force companies to develop cars that are more environmentally friendly for me this is a nightmare tbh if they pull this of as it is pointing towards that this is gonna be our reality very soon. I hope not but unfortunately i don't think we can avoid here in Sweden.


(Now to try some maths excusing my self in advance if the numbers are of it wasn't my strongest subject)

That means 1 liter of fuel costs about 14,5 Swedish kr (As of now) that in US spec is 0.26 Gallons would cost you 1,65 dollars for every 0,26 gallon you fuel up(Now i know in the US the fuel cost differs a lot from place to place). That means 1 Gallon would cost you 5,8 dollars approximately, With the current Swedish prices on Gasoline, And that with the increasing cost of refining fuel and extracting it from the ground and with the increased 2% index regulation is loads of money just to fuel up car.

So imagine driving in your BMW M2 stopping to fuel up the tank is 55 liters that is 14,5 gallons. As of now fueling up with V-Power costs 15,5kr/l = 852,5 sk for a full tank, In the US that would be 93,54$ to fuel up an M2 if it were 0 in the tank. And with a 2% increase for us in Sweden that means fueling up your M2 is gonna cost ya 870kr that is 95,46 dollars to fuel up an M2. And increased with 2% every year.

That's why automakers needs to adapt faster to the new world we are moving towards if they wanna survive they have to learn how to do environmentally friendly cars but also keeping the performance of the current ones.

[Alan l.]

Aside from the new 7 there is nothing fresh from the BMW lineup. The new 5 is about to be released, the 3 is in desperate need of a new model compete against MB. These are the bread and butter for BMW.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by David70

Not following how sale volume and "Ultimate Driving Machine" are connected. We should desire the one that sells in the greatest volume (I'm headed out to look at a Camry right now)?

Let me clarify
You used to purchase a BMW because it was the Ultimate Driving Machine. That was the reason to pay $60K for a 3-series - because it was special. But today, there really is nothing special about a 3-series and it is one of the most expensive cars in the segment. Heck, there is nothing special about the 5 or 6 series either and they also are two of the most expensive cars in the segment (when given options that come standard in a Kia like keyless start...)

So today, why buy a BMW? And I think the market is showing this.

I think this article sums it up nicely
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revel...ts-better-bmw/

[David70]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Let me clarify
You used to purchase a BMW because it was the Ultimate Driving Machine. That was the reason to pay $60K for a 3-series - because it was special. But today, there really is nothing special about a 3-series and it is one of the most expensive cars in the segment. Heck, there is nothing special about the 5 or 6 series either and they also are two of the most expensive cars in the segment (when given options that come standard in a Kia like keyless start...)

So today, why buy a BMW? And I think the market is showing this.

I think this article sums it up nicely
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revel...ts-better-bmw/

I do agree with this. I think the base problem is they haven't kept the same spread between them and what the competition has to offer, but this mainly happened because the competition has been after them for a long time.

Say "benchmark a small/midsize sports sedan" and everyone new what you would look at.

15 years ago if you want a small or midsize sport sedan, RWD or RWD based the options were very limited. I now own an ATS and the thought of buying a Cadillac 15 years ago wasn't even considered. BMW is still one of the best or maybe the best depending on what you value but there are a lot more options now.

[famdeezy]

What made BMW of old special more than most other cars at the time was how I felt in the driver seat. The steering, seat, car and driver all felt connected to the road. They were Drivers cars and If you enjoy driving you get a BMW because it's the ultimate driving machine.

Sadly, I don't get that same feeing in the newer cars and it seems to me like BMW is going through an identity crisis trying to be everything for everyone. Hopefully they realize this and make the necessary changes to bring back the ultimate driving machine.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by doug_999

You didn't total your spreadsheets - so they are "noise". However, if I totalled your spreadsheets correctly....
YTD
1 Lexus - down 11,759
2. Audi - up 4,049
3. MB - up 5,476
4. BMW - down 17,884

PS, that puts MB at #1, Lexus at #2, and BMW at #3 for the year in luxury totals.

Demise? No, but the Ultimate Driving Machine? Not anymore.

Since you are adding them up , could you post the YTD sales numbers for each manufacturer?.


Measuring whether sales are UP or DOWN over the prior year is also a fair amount of " white noise ".

Audi may be up by 4000 units and BMW down by 18k but BMW could still be outselling Audi by 50,000 units ...:


Volume of sales vs competitors in the current year is certainly important.


Either way, BMW will certainly struggle to deliver cars for the next several months as this differential issue plays out.

[jpnh]

I seem to recall reading something in the last month or so that stated that BMW sales in EU and Asia were strong and that it was only the US that was not doing all that well

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Let me clarify
You used to purchase a BMW because it was the Ultimate Driving Machine. That was the reason to pay $60K for a 3-series - because it was special. But today, there really is nothing special about a 3-series and it is one of the most expensive cars in the segment. Heck, there is nothing special about the 5 or 6 series either and they also are two of the most expensive cars in the segment (when given options that come standard in a Kia like keyless start...)

So today, why buy a BMW? And I think the market is showing this.

I think this article sums it up nicely
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revel...ts-better-bmw/

The market is slowing, that's all this is.

Here's an article today from Time Magazine:

"Why You Should Be Worried That Americans Are Buying Fewer Cars"

"Americans bought 1.51 million new cars and trucks in August. With gas still hovering below $2.25 a gallon nationally, that might be considered a healthy number. But its represents a 3.5% slowdown from the 1.57 million purchased last August — in a year that turned out to be the biggest for auto sales ever."

article notes month of august:
GM -5%
GMC -14%
FORD -9%
F-SERIES TRUCKS -6%
FUSION -25%
FOCUS -25%
TOYOTA -5%

August is the 3rd month in a row of national sales decline, worst since the 2009 recession.

Here is the ytd sales of ford focus, clearly negative.



ytd sales of fusion, again negative



ytd sales of toyota, omg negative. (-4%)



link to article:
http://time.com/money/4477425/auto-s...rease-economy/

Again, relax. BMW is following a national trend line, Mercedes is bucking it. That's it.

You should be happy, it is a great time to buy a car, and it's about to get even better.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

The market is slowing, that's all this is.

I totally disagree. While the market may be slowing, that is not all that it is.

I did find this -which is eye opening
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

The market is slowing for "cars" - that's pretty clear and was a bit of a WOW to me.

and

BMW's car sales are down over 16% this year (truck sales up 8%). They have one of the worst decreases in car sales (in terms of percentages) of any auto maker. Only Chrysler, VW, and Fiat are worse (and yes, MB's are down almost 13%).

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I totally disagree. While the market may be slowing, that is not all that it is.

I did find this -which is eye opening
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

The market is slowing for "cars" - that's pretty clear and was a bit of a WOW to me.

and

BMW's car sales are down over 16% this year (truck sales up 8%). They have one of the worst decreases in car sales (in terms of percentages) of any auto maker. Only Chrysler, VW, and Fiat are worse (and yes, MB's are down almost 13%).

Yes, so SUV sales are doing well compared to cars in general, that's a completely separate discussion. We are discussing the entire lineup.

that's because:

1. fuel prices are low

2. economy has been doing really well

3. fuel economy of suvs have dramatically improved

This thread is about all bmw cars and sales.

And I am repeating myself here, the drastic decrease of 3 series sales is the single reason why bmw is down 8.3% ytd vs -2.2% if that one lineup was taken out.

the numbers says something about the 3 series, which is at the end of the production life. NOT the entire bmw line as you would suggest. I.e. no longer building cars people want to buy.

Here is the list of TOP 30 selling cars in America. Notice clear negative trends in August 2016 vs August 2015 AND stagnant or negative trend across the board in YTD sales. Which is my original point.

YTD sales show 12/30 with NEGATIVE growth, 7/30 with less than 5% growth ytd, and these are the BEST selling 30 cars of the USA.

Again if this is the trend for the best selling cars in the USA, what does that tell you about the rest of industry?

I can put a list of the rest of the lineup and you will see that the slope is CLEARLY negative.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by jpnh

I seem to recall reading something in the last month or so that stated that BMW sales in EU and Asia were strong and that it was only the US that was not doing all that well

Yes we are doing especially well our main driving forces are the new 3er including GT,7er,X1,5er and X vehicles and continuously showing increase month after month the 2er Active and Gran Tourer are still globally the best selling 2er models. Further incentives have also brought increases for the revised BMW i3,
BMW 225e,BMW X5 40e and BMW 330e which lead their segment and account for 10% of each models sales. The new 740e is expected to follow and become the best selling 7er model.
Again Asia leads the global sales and more importantly on the eve of the launch of the Chinese built X1L and 1er Sedan.
At MINI the new Clubman continues to meet expectations.

Of course a product transition is imminent in regards to the all new 5er and the MINI Countryman aswell as in 2017 will be an all new X3 model.
The revised 3er GT,i3 and 740e, 750d and M760Li models are also imminent.

[dkhm3]

doug_999

Here is some more numbers of

small luxury cars all brands, mid size luxury cars all brands, and mid size luxury SUV all brands.

Note all the (red) negative sales.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Yes, so SUV sales are doing well compared to cars in general, that's a completely separate discussion. We are discussing the entire lineup......

This thread is about all bmw cars and sales.

And I am repeating myself here, the drastic decrease of 3 series sales is the single reason why bmw is down 8.3% ytd vs -2.2% if that one lineup was taken out.

the numbers says something about the 3 series, which is at the end of the production life. NOT the entire bmw line as you would suggest. I.e. no longer building cars people want to buy.

Here is the list of TOP 30 selling cars in America. Notice clear negative trends in August 2016 vs August 2015 AND stagnant or negative trend across the board in YTD sales. Which is my original point.

Once again, you post a bunch of numbers without totals and draw a conclusion. Let's look at some facts...

The 3-series came out in 2012 - it is not at the end of production life. I believe it is being produced into 2018? The 5-series is at the end however (and pretty sure it never won a single car comparison - in fact, it might have come in last in all of them).

You are also focusing on "August" sales - take the bigger picture.

I'm not doubting the industry is possibly headed for a downturn - I am pointing out that BMW car sales have taken a larger hit than most other organizations YTD. And yes, when one car is almost 50% of your sales, and that car is doing poorly (despite having two more years left), there is a darn good reason! (and no, it is not the entire industry).

[SeanWRT]

The simple fact nobody put straight - the full range of BMW products are not interesting the market RIGHT NOW.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

The simple fact nobody put straight - the full range of BMW products are not interesting the market RIGHT NOW.

This is what I was going to say yesterday, but I figured I might just cause more fodder. An example I'd point to is the new MB lineup...the cars, compared to BMWs, have beautiful curves. I test drove the C300 coupe and absolutely loved the fit and finish, materials and design. The problem is that it's just too much of a slouch for me.

I think the other thing going on is that BMW's just hit a saturation point where the traditional customers don't think the car is exclusive or cool anymore now that so many regular premium car buyers are buying BMWs. What will be interesting to see is what happens when the johnny-come-lately average folks figure out BMWs aren't cool anymore and flock somewhere else. How strong the brand's base is at that point will determine how the manufacturer weathers that storm.

I think this is the big vulnerability....and it's not something that's going to happen today or next week or even next year. But it will happen. Cars are not iPhones...there are alternatives and no real ecosystem - yet. (Anti/Non-iPhone people please refrain, this was just by way of example).

I think back to when BMW surged ahead of Mercedes in the early 90s and never looked back. It took Mercedes a long time to recover. Think of Mercedes 80s cars vs. their 90s cars...sold, reliable, stout, understated luxury vs. techy, complicated, fancy and very unreliable. The old school Mercedes folks didn't buy the new cars because they didn't like them (and their old car still ran, or even to this day runs, just fine) and sales were left to the newbies. That worked out okay until the newbies went somewhere else.

I'm afraid some of the historically staunch BMW folks are starting to look elsewhere right now. I did when I got my Cayman a few years ago, and were it not for my desire to do ED before it's eliminated by the bean counters, I'd have probably stayed away. Now I've rambled, but there's my more than two cents!

[Cuz5150]

Originally Posted by autopal

The 3 series (which I think is BMW'S best product) is down by a whopping 42% That's shocking. The 3 series, particularly the 340 and its inline 6, have the best powertrain and engines in the segment, it's just a shame BMW refuses to change the outdated looking interior, which is why BMW fans like me, is now driving Mercedes C450 AMG.

I refuse to buy a 3 series because of how the Outside looks...