[Tengocity]

Recent threads about the quality of various aspects of the F30 - leather, paintwork, plastics, squeaks and rattles etc had me wondering whether this is something that is reflective of the lower end of the range ie. 1 series and 3 series, and that as you move up the range to 5 and 6 series, larger X models, M models etc that there is a definite improvement in these aspects?

I have to admit that I have little experience outwith the 3 series and the Z4, apart from 2 months in an E60 520d. I found that to be very well put together and a step up in interior robustness from an E90 at that time.

So just curious as to what experience and thoughts others have on these things. Is it just plastics that improve, or does the paintwork get better too for example?

[Billy Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Recent threads about the quality of various aspects of the F30 - leather, paintwork, plastics, squeaks and rattles etc had me wondering whether this is something that is reflective of the lower end of the range ie. 1 series and 3 series, and that as you move up the range to 5 and 6 series, larger X models, M models etc that there is a definite improvement in these aspects?

I have to admit that I have little experience outwith the 3 series and the Z4, apart from 2 months in an E60 520d. I found that to be very well put together and a step up in interior robustness from an E90 at that time.

So just curious as to what experience and thoughts others have on these things. Is it just plastics that improve, or does the paintwork get better too for example?

I had a 5 series loaner and did not really notice a massive difference in quality - what I do know is it felt like a barge compared to my 3 and although I thought I was going to love it, it made me realise I am a 3 series fanboy!!!

[davyk31]

Paint most certainly does not improve, have seen M5 and M6 with the typical awful orange peel finish.

[JD6]

The same poor Dakota leather appears on the higher models: 5, 6, 7, X5... At least the M cars don't suffer from that. My last F10 5 series did feel a little more luxurious than the F30 and was certainly quieter at speed. It did develop its fair share of rattles during my ownership though. It was also a bit of a barge and didn't cope well with twisty roads

[JustChris]

From my experience order of quality is as expected, from my cars

X5>520D>>330D+323i
>>235i >>X1

The gap from 3 to 5 is highest. The X1 was a bit of a shocker internally. X5/5/6/7 not too much difference IMO but improves a little.

[dopper99]

I dont even know why they call it leather - it doesnt even smell of leather.

Now, the M3 I looked at the other week, that was a different story.

[JustChris]

I quite like Dakota. Its rough as hell yes, but I've not once had a problem with getting it back to like new. Kids, football boots, mud, sun cream and it takes it all. Audi leather is really smooth and looks great in the showroom, I've always wondered how well is lasts. Agree the M3/4 Nappa Leather looks great.

[carzaddict]

in regards to build quality....its more or less the same across the range. in regards to material quality......yes you do get an improvement across the range. If you notice theres a ton of crappy plastic in the 3 series.....and less in the 7. the 7 has more leather touch points than the 3. the 7 has alcantara headliner (i think)

[Arwmjc]

Originally Posted by carzaddict

in regards to build quality....its more or less the same across the range. in regards to material quality......yes you do get an improvement across the range. If you notice theres a ton of crappy plastic in the 3 series.....and less in the 7. the 7 has more leather touch points than the 3. the 7 has alcantara headliner (i think)

Depends what car ur coming from I guess... I'm coming from a seat leon 2005 so I'm sure I will be delighted with the quality of the 335d interier...

[Tengocity]

So does any manufacturer really stand out for build quality? Not just perceived material quality like an Audi, but really well screwed together (so to speak), top notch materials, flawless paintwork...

I'm guessing you really need to be going up the ranges, or looking at the very pricey marques.

I never really considered how amazing paintwork could look till I had a good look at a Bentley!

But then you read plenty enough about parts bin raiding on cars like Astons, iffy plastics on ferraris etc

[SkyJawa]

The Dakota in my old E92 still looked great after 80k miles, not worn and knackered like I've seen in so many other cars with leather. Maybe its just down to how looked after it is...........

[Billy Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

So does any manufacturer really stand out for build quality? Not just perceived material quality like an Audi, but really well screwed together (so to speak), top notch materials, flawless paintwork...

I'm guessing you really need to be going up the ranges, or looking at the very pricey marques.

I never really considered how amazing paintwork could look till I had a good look at a Bentley!

But then you read plenty enough about parts bin raiding on cars like Astons, iffy plastics on ferraris etc

agree - even my dads range rover back 8/9 years ago which was mega-bucks still had some iffy plastics dotted about and had signs of parts bin raiding - unless you are buying Bentley, rolls etc I think there will always be an element of penny pinching where they can

my old boss bought a new jag for well over £50,000 and it literally fell apart in 6 months

what you must remember is that although we all spend a lot of money on our cars, they are still a mass produced item rather than a custom hand crafted item and you have to accept the fact that there will be the odd lemon built etc etc

with cars I personally feel you get what you pay for in terms of quality, performance etc etc and I am sure my £35,000 car is better than a £25,000 one

This is my 5th BMW and I have never had any great issues with build quality and I have always felt happy with my purchase

[Proftinkerpot]

"what you must remember is that although we all spend a lot of money on our cars, they are still a mass produced item rather than a custom hand crafted item and you have to accept the fact that there will be the odd lemon built etc etc"

I don't think mass production is necessarily the excuse for poor build quality - take TVR and Lotus. They had a reputation for rubbish build quality and reliability. Admittedly I think both have cleaned up their acts. I owned 4 Ford's in the past and each one was a more recent model than the one previous and each was bought younger and with lower miles but the build and reliability got progressively worse. After my last one, I swore I would never own another Ford.

[HighlandPete]

Is it a simple issue these days to define outright quality. A lot of what we feel about a car is not fact, but impressions and even biased perception.

For example refinement often is referred to as 'lacking a sporty feel'. Since when has sportiness meant it needs to be less refined? It is this sort of thing which detracts from how a car really compares to another. So if a 3-series is more refined than an 1-series, and 5-series than a 3-series, does that mean it is a better built car, better quality?

Perhaps there's more detail in the features which give us a feel of refinement. Even how a door shuts can influence how we feel about the quality, the solid 'thunk', we expect a 'quality' car to have that characteristic. But lighten the doors and however good the quality of the door, or the build and/or fit, if it doesn't feel right to us we mark it down.

Build quality is also questionable, some examples seen to be better than others in each and every model. I've sat in 1-series models (including a M135i) and it looks and feels as well built as my 5-series. I've looked at paint finishes (I used to run a body shop in a previous career) and see superb finishes, excellent quality for the cost point, but we hear and see other examples of the exact same model are rubbished for poor paint finish.

Then we look under the skin and find weaknesses and flaws in the designs. Some are clearly due to under developed and questionable design. Others due to production and assembly weaknesses, Poor material selection comes to the fore, far too soon in some models.

I've an open mind to whether we have different 'quality' (broad term) across the ranges. In other words, are manufacturing and build tolerances, material choices, etc., better specified as we go up through the BMW range as a matter of course, or do subtleties in the designs and options fitted, often raise the quality perception?

HighlandPete

[dopper99]

It depends how you define refinement Pete.
To me, refinement is the ability to be able to plod on mile after mile for 4 hours and get out the car fresh as if you driven for 10 mins. Or the ability to do large speeds (on a private runway of course ) but feel like you are doing 40.
But, there is no drama and less excitement I feel these days. Today's BMWs are very, very good cars ..... Very safe but once you've had your car for a few weeks the excitement seems to dwindle somewhat.
A good measure of this is how many people would say they'd take their car out for a blast around the lanes just for the sake of it?

[E60MKF]

I have to agree, the biggest jump seems to be with the F30 and the F10.

In my house I have a F10, F20 and F30 and the F10 without doubt is leagues ahead of both cars. The 3 series in my opinion is less refined than the F10 and to a noticeable degree. The f30 has diesel clatter which is rather irritating and the quality of the cabin is on par with the F20. I just don't see how BMW can put a near identical interior in the 1,2,3, and 4 series.. With many reviewers commenting on the quality of the F30 interior, I was surprised how plastically it felt and basic it looked especially when compared to the F10..

But the drive on the F30 is without doubt much better on the F30 than the other two. If the diesel clatter was less noticeable and cabin was quieter I would use the F30 a lot more than I do now. Bare in the mind my F30 is a few weeks old and the F10 and F20 are both a year old.

TBH, the F20 is not very good. The ergonomics of the car is all wrong. The only thing the F20 does better than a golf is the lack road noise/refinement of the engine which an A3 would perfectly solve. Due to this i have been looking since the car was 6 months old a way to get rid of it. Now I think the 2 series active tourer might just be the perfect solution.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by dopper99

It depends how you define refinement Pete.

I guess I'm thinking motor industry reference/measure of NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness). To me low NVH is part of what makes a quality car.

Hence why I see a 535i as a pretty refined vehicle, smaller rims and more rubber helps.

Cars have got so much better over the years, for NVH, but doesn't always come cheap. Takes lot of serious development and typically means building better quality (many areas) into a vehicle.

Then we get something like the F30 which can have loads of tyre roar and excessive wind noise... to me a backwards step. Is that cutting corners? Lack of quality? Or is 'refinement' in those areas not so important in the 3-series segment? I don't know the answer, but it is indicative of lack of quality to me.

If tyre and wind noise is typical of 3-series models, then the 5-series is definitely of higher quality in those areas.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by E60MKF

I have to agree, the biggest jump seems to be with the F30 and the F10.

In my house I have a F10, F20 and F30 and the F10 without doubt is leagues ahead of both cars. The 3 series in my opinion is less refined than the F10 and to a noticeable degree. The f30 has diesel clatter which is rather irritating ...

I think the diesel clatter is a good example of where more attention to refinement is given to the F10. We know the same N47 engine is used in both the F30 320d and the F10 520d. Chalk and cheese for NVH. Is it simply because the engine is in a bigger installation? Don't think so. It has to be more refined because the segment dictates it needs to be. Is that a quality issue, I guess not, more the design brief being implemented.

HighlandPete

[E60MKF]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I think the diesel clatter is a good example of where more attention to refinement is given to the F10. We know the same N47 engine is used in both the F30 320d and the F10 520d. Chalk and cheese for NVH. Is it simply because the engine is in a bigger installation? Don't think so. It has to be more refined because the segment dictates it needs to be. Is that a quality issue, I guess not, more the design brief being implemented.

HighlandPete

Both the F30 and F10 are 2L, 320D and 520D.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I guess I'm thinking motor industry reference/measure of NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness). To me low NVH is part of what makes a quality car.

Hence why I see a 535i as a pretty refined vehicle, smaller rims and more rubber helps.

Cars have got so much better over the years, for NVH, but doesn't always come cheap. Takes lot of serious development and typically means building better quality (many areas) into a vehicle.

Then we get something like the F30 which can have loads of tyre roar and excessive wind noise... to me a backwards step. Is that cutting corners? Lack of quality? Or is 'refinement' in those areas not so important in the 3-series segment? I don't know the answer, but it is indicative of lack of quality to me.

If tyre and wind noise is typical of 3-series models, then the 5-series is definitely of higher quality in those areas.

HighlandPete

Pete, I understand where you're coming from but I would try to separate quality from the designed spec. For example, the E30 would not possibly compete with a modern car for NVH, but the 'quality' in my eyes (possibly with rose tinted specs!) of the build was better than my F30. Mercs of that era too... They just had that 'bank vault' feel that had you thinking they would last forever.

Whether it's by design or as a result of modern construction techniques that allow for more efficient build cost I've no idea. Or perhaps modern recyclable plastics are just inherently more creaky!

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Whether it's by design or as a result of modern construction techniques that allow for more efficient build cost I've no idea. Or perhaps modern recyclable plastics are just inherently more creaky!

I think its purely down to cost. They seem to get away with a cheap as possible whilst still trying to maintain a "reasonable" quality.

They could make better quality plastic if they really want to but the bean counters need to be satisfied. The BMW is not a money-no-object car, its mass produced and built to a cost like any other.

[Tengocity]

I wonder if perhaps a car like the 3 series which spans a great price range should have a 'lux' spec and standard spec?


Example

Lux spec - higher quality materials and finishes for cars with 6 cylinder engines. Proper leather seats, more sound deadening

Standard - as just now for lower powered cars.

I would have happily paid a few thousand more for that!