[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’m surprised you’re saying “I used this argument before”, and haven’t explored how wrong it is so you stop it.
Hope it was the last time you used it, because it’s a foolish argument.

Comparing ICEV to horses and BEV to cars that replaced horses is bizarre.

A car allowed us to do things horses never did.
We travelled across counties and states on the same day, as opposed to days or weeks with horses. We can travel across countries in days, instead of months or years.
We don’t get wet when it rains. We can carry passengers. We’re comfortable.

What does the BEV offer that the ICEV can’t do? We can tell you what the ICEV can do that the BEV can’t (longer range, less fuelling time, manual transmission/engagement).

No revolution. No comparison. So stop with the horse and car comparison….

I explained why I used to have that argument with the horse analogy. I used to be on the same hate bandwagon against EVs because I just listened to what others said isntead of looking more into it. And with the horse analogy that's when it clicked to me and realised we will simply adapt and everyone is making it a much bigger deal than it is. And the fact that there will be plenty of gas cars means again our infrastructure won't need a drastic change in 2035 right away. Our infrastructure will be fine lol. I don't understand how people rationalize or arrive to the conclusion that it won't.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by Cos270

BS in that it will never be achieved? Most likely. But they’re going to do their best to try. Shrinking demographics along with other factors are going to leave OEMs with significantly smaller profits under their current business models. Higher-priced cars for the rich along with subscription services for the lower middle class customers are their select methods of remaining solvent. Time will tell if it works or not (my bet is no).

No I meant about believing that there is a secret cabal out there who wants to make the lives of middle class and make them slaves and bla bla bla. I deleted my comment but I see you replied before it applied, I didn't want to open a further can of worms on that because I realise when I argue that topic with someone who believes that, there's just no point. I'll wish you a great day and move on

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

I explained why I used to have that argument with the horse analogy. I used to be on the same hate bandwagon against EVs because I just listened to what others said isntead of looking more into it. And with the horse analogy that's when it clicked to me and realised we will simply adapt and everyone is making it a much bigger deal than it is. And the fact that there will be plenty of gas cars means again our infrastructure won't need a drastic change in 2035 right away. Our infrastructure will be fine lol. I don't understand how people rationalize or arrive to the conclusion that it won't.

Gotcha. I understand your point now. You’re saying that even if things aren’t “ready for them” i.e. no roads having been developed for cars when horses dominated, roads got built. So your contention is that even though the infrastructure for charging cars isn’t there, it’ll be built.

I agree with your premise. Where it falls short is that 1- BEVs haven’t proven to be the future solution (they just might be), and 2- cars weren’t imposed on horse owners, so the natural progression of car ownership allowed the demand to be there organically so initiative could exist to build roads.
When you impose a certain solution, natural initiatives cannot cope with that unnatural demand.

I have not observed people “hating on EVs”. Most, if not all, love the technology and what those cars can do.
But not love the shoving down their throats.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Gotcha. I understand your point now. You’re saying that even if things aren’t “ready for them” i.e. no roads having been developed for cars when horses dominated, roads got built. So your contention is that even though the infrastructure for charging cars isn’t there, it’ll be built.

I agree with your premise. Where it falls short is that 1- BEVs haven’t proven to be the future solution (they just might be), and 2- cars weren’t imposed on horse owners, so the natural progression of car ownership allowed the demand to be there organically so initiative could exist to build roads.
When you impose a certain solution, natural initiatives cannot cope with that unnatural demand.

I have not observed people “hating on EVs”. Most, if not all, love the technology and what those cars can do.
But not love the shoving down their throats.

Yeah that to. Like maybe hydrogen or with F1 planning to go for sustainable gas that might trickle down and be better. Don't get me wrong, I love gas cars to and I think sports cars should still be allowed to be sold ICE for example and most commuters should instead be EV. But yeah that is another argument to go off on.

Over here and around social media I just see a lot of hate based on the EV itself. Like some stupid things where if you drive an EV, somehow you're not a man or don't have a real car and you know just petty highschool bs things like that that really irks me. It's like so stupid. But you're right on here it's probably not like that for most and I may be mixing that up.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Yeah that to. Like maybe hydrogen or with F1 planning to go for renewable gas, maybe that's option to. Don't get me wrong, I love gas cars to and I think sports cars should still be allowed to be sold ICE for example and most commuters should instead be EV. But yeah that is another argument to go off on.

Over here and around social media I just see a lot of hate based on the EV itself. Like some stupid things where if you drive an EV, somehow you're not a man or don't have a real car and you know just petty highschool bs things like that that really irks me. It's like so stupid. But you're right on here it's probably not like that for most and I may be mixing that up.

Social media is a cesspool… it’s pretty amazing what people say.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

No I meant about believing that there is a secret cabal out there who wants to make the lives of middle class and make them slaves and bla bla bla. I deleted my comment but I see you replied before it applied, I didn't want to open a further can of worms on that because I realise when I argue that topic with someone who believes that, there's just no point. I'll wish you a great day and move on

Ah, no worries. I agree it’s not quite that sinister - but the implications for the (ever-shrinking) middle class are similar either way. Have a great day!

[beammeupscottie]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

I used to have this argument before to but IMO when you really think about it I really don't think it's an issue. Look at horses and cars, there was no infrastructure for cars yet did we stay with horses? Of course not. We succeeded and pushed through. What about all the horse purists back then? If this really goes through to EV only then I have no doubt we will adapt. We're good at that, we should give ourselves a bit of credit here.

You also have to remember the2035 thing is NEW cars. We're still going to have plentttty of gas cars so again infrastructure wise I doubt it's an issue. Not everyone is going to get rid of their gas cars on 2034 new year eve to get EVs in 2035.

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’m surprised you’re saying “I used this argument before”, and haven’t explored how wrong it is so you stop it.
Hope it was the last time you used it, because it’s a foolish argument.

Comparing ICEV to horses and BEV to cars that replaced horses is bizarre.

A car allowed us to do things horses never did.
We travelled across counties and states on the same day, as opposed to days or weeks with horses. We can travel across countries in days, instead of months or years.
We don’t get wet when it rains. We can carry passengers. We’re comfortable.

What does the BEV offer that the ICEV can’t do? We can tell you what the ICEV can do that the BEV can’t (longer range, less fuelling time, manual transmission/engagement).

No revolution. No comparison. So stop with the horse and car comparison….

I’m not hating on EV’s, the future, or tech…
I was only commenting on the realities of mandates vs infrastructure to support those mandates. We have rolling black outs and it’s practically 2024 without the EV mandates. What does one think will happen when the infrastructure is subject to increase of stress on the aging outdated power grids nationwide? Charging times are an issue also. What about those who are apartment dwellers with no home access to at home charging? Subsides did not last long enough for solar panels so not nearly every home has them. There are so many issues with Mandating EV’s and how this would impact everyday life. Could it happen, sure. It’s just not feasible for when government wants it to go into effect. IJS. It’s myopic to think just because it works for you now that it will work for everyone (even by 2035).

[Scrapula]

My great grandmother was born in the late 1800’s on a farm in Kansas. She told me a story about her father buying a car. It didn’t stop when he said ‘whoa’ and crashed into the barn.

Anyway, subsidized oil started in the early 1900’s and continues to this day. The Joint Commission on Taxation estimates that if we eliminated tax breaks on drilling, it would generate $13 billion over the next 10 years. We also give tax credits for coal projects. That’s another billion.

What you are seeing with renewable energy is the shift from fossil fuels to renewables. Think of it taking the old subsidies and applying them to new ones. The more we can shift to wind, solar, and water power will leave more for industries that rely on fossil fuels. Peak oil discovery was in the late 1960’s. It’s been downhill since then. They have created fracking to keep the reserves up. We have lots of useless shale oil, so maybe they will come up with a cost effective way to refine it. But, maybe they won’t.

No one is forcing anyone to buy an EV. There are rules for new cars but not work trucks, semi tractor trailers, farm equipment, etc. So, buy a new gasoline/petrol car in 2034. I’m sure a bunch will be titled and never driven, so you can buy them used in the future. Getting bent out of shape for an unknown future is a waste of energy.

I bought an EV because I love the technology. I also bought a plasma TV in the 1990’s when everyone else was using rear projection TVs. Yes, it was $10,000. I’ve moved on to OLED, but those $4k TVs were very expensive when they came out, too. Plasma doesn’t even exist anymore. Would I have still bought one, absolutely. Technology changes and 10 years from now, I expect a completely different type of EV. Solid state will be cool. Remember how much early solid state disc drives cost?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by M2siast

What does the BEV offer that the ICEV can’t do? We can tell you what the ICEV can do that the BEV can’t (longer range, less fuelling time, manual transmission/engagement).

No revolution. No comparison. So stop with the horse and car comparison….

No sound, no gears thus more refinement. No exhaust gasses. No need for oil. Less maintenance. By all measures, this is a revolution. Especially when you own one, it becomes very clear.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No sound, no gears thus more refinement. No exhaust gasses. No need for oil. Less maintenance. By all measures, this is a revolution. Especially when you own one, it becomes very clear.

Look up “revolution”. Cheers

[stavstavcc]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

Getting bent out of shape for an unknown future is a waste of energy

Dude, that’s such a great life advice in general!


Merry Festivus and Happy New Year

[Canuck335]

I think the biggest driver away from ICE / petroleum is geopolitical.
All this shit going on in the Middle East has a lot to do with OPEC and its influence on oil prices.
Western governments desperately want to get away from that crap and see EV’s as way out. People complain about the price of gas and vote on it. Seems to me the best way is to remove that hot button topic from elections.

[Noddy335i]

Whilst an Inline 6 is an option I know exactly what I will be buying when it’s time for a change 👌🏼

[jdhiro]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No sound, no gears thus more refinement. No exhaust gasses. No need for oil. Less maintenance. By all measures, this is a revolution. Especially when you own one, it becomes very clear.

I haven’t bought an EV yet (waiting on the next gen), but I’m looking forward to never going to another dirty/shifty gas station again in my life.

[flipicaneze]

I'm waiting to see battery tech to become safer and less expensive to produce. $10-20k to replace a battery is ridiculous especially since the manufactures like Tesla now have EV drivers by the balls.

Charging takes travelers on mainstream routes in order to have a charger nearby.
This makes a vacationing family avoid fun and adventurous paths to avoid running out of charge. (As a kid, my father would take an alternate route to see more than what the interstate had to offer)

It used to be better-off people bought new cars, later on traded them resulting in cars available for less well-off who often times fixed the cars themselves which led into careers in mechanics. This doesn't seem possible at this point with EVs not being financially feasible or technically possible to fix by the average consumer.

Things will have to change in the EV industry before they can make ICE vehicles obsolete.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

4 years ago when my brother in law got his tesla s I kinda made fun of him.
Now I have 2 EVs.
The problem with most of people is they have not tried/live with one.

I agree with this. EV demand will become organic (vs mandated) once more people learn what they’re like to live with in the real world, either through direct experience or feedback from someone they personally know and trust.

EVs are still in the early stages while ICE development has substantially peaked. They will also soon be less expensive to build than ICE vehicles - especially hybrids. Judgement about range, cost, recharging time and charging infrastructure etc is generally based on today’s situation vs the future reality.

Whether we like it or not, I think EVs will eventually (~10 years) displace the sales of all new ICE (including hybrid) powered passenger cars in developed nations. The exception being niche low volume cars/models aimed at enthusiasts.

Happy new year everyone.

[Tomduck]

I agree there will be a time when I buy an EV and it makes sense to do so, but that’s not now for me. I am semi retired, do 7-8000 mile a year with half of that being 250-400 mile round trips. I do not like any kind of hassle, queuing or hunting for charging scenarios.

My X1 U11 diesel averages 60mpg (750+ miles a tank) and costs significantly less to to buy than a mild hybrid or full e car so buying one does not stack up.

As an counterpoint to the title of the thread if you google “BMW continues to develop ICE” you will see they are still working on making these engines even more fuel efficient and clean, I still plan to buy another diesel before the end of the decade and have no doubt it will be even better than the current crop. 100+ years of development mean these engines are now at their pinnacle, rather that than the early years of electrification.

If things look totally different in ten years time when i’m in my mid 60s then I’ll reconsider an ICE.