What is more affordable? 335 or M3

[JoeyBananaz18]

Obviously I know which is cheaper to buy, but from a long term perspective, which will cost an owner more?

I currently have an '09 335 with 37k miles on it that (knock on wood) has been very good to me. I'd like to entertain the idea of moving up to an M3 but I'm curious to know how an M3 with similar age and miles would being doing at this point.

I've been very lucky and have had all problems covered under warranty. Would the N54 be more costly to own long term vs. the S65.

Just looking for rough ideas, no noob bashing please and thank you!

[Sedan_Clan]

It depends. People will use anecdotal evidence to suggest that the ///M3 will be more expensive to own, but it really is hard to say. Some people will have mechanical issues and others won't. If you're considering the move, I'd make it. Try to find a clean model to jump into and 'knock on wood'.

[thekurgan]

There is no answer to this when it comes to older/used cars.

[jphughan]

You can't just look at reliability issues to determine long-term cost of ownership. While it's true that a particular M3 might be cheaper than a particular 335i if the latter happens to be a unit that develops lots of problems, the opposite scenario can also play out, so that doesn't seem like a good basis for comparison. The fact is that statistically an M3 will be noticeably more expensive, for lots of reasons. Consider:

- Gas: Not only is fuel economy noticeably down, but you'll enjoy driving it more, which means you'll rev it harder and probably put more miles on the car overall.

- Insurance: Call your insurer to ask, but it will be a hike. My friend pays more for his 335i than I do for my M3, but keeping the person constant, no question the M3 will be more.

- Tires: They're wider and larger, and they'll wear faster.

- Maintenance: 10W-60 oil alone is $15/liter (compared to like $5 for 10W-30), and the M3 takes 9 liters compared to 4-5. Non-BMW people are amazed that an M3 oil change can cost $180, but there you go. Pads and rotors are larger, and the rotors are drilled, so they'll cost more. Diff fluid is a little expensive (but infrequently needed) and the spark plugs aren't cheap either.

- Repairs: Most things on an M3 will be more expensive than a 335i, period. The engine has definitely proven to be more reliable overall, but don't think that will make it a bargain by any means.

Bottom line is look before you leap, and consider how much you're able to save in your current life situation. An M3 will definitely take a bite out of that on an ongoing basis. Whether it's worth it is a personal question. As I've said in the past, I believe that an M3's higher cost of ownership is only justifiable if the owner will take it to the track occasionally -- otherwise you're paying to own a car whose true colors you'll never experience, and thus I don't believe that such people get their money's worth (even if they think they do only because they don't know what they're missing.) But of course going to the track is a whole other level of cost -- though still a bargain on a fun per dollar basis IMHO.

But at the very least, hopefully you have some fun twisty roads near where you live that you'd take the time to go drive for fun. An M3 doomed to nothing but commuting on city streets and freeways is an M3 that will go utterly wasted.

[jeff@autocouture]

ive put more money into maintaining my e90 325xi then any of my e9x m3

[Quicksilv3r]

It's the luck of the draw. M-specific parts are noticeably more expensive across the board, but both cars have their respective strengths and weaknesses. It's all relative, but from everything I've heard and read, the E9X M3 is potentially the most reliable M-car ever produced. If you've tuned your 335, the M3 won't be as big of an impressive leap in power, but for the entirety of the M3 package, it's a completely different animal. Huge power isn't everything, however. I recently downgraded significantly in that dept. coming from a tuned E55 AMG, a car with enough torque to jump start the Moon, but the overall package with the M sells me every time (this is my 4th M-car, and it's good to be back).

[tdott]

It depends on the type of person you are.

Someone who does all their own work and oil changes will spend less to maintain an M3 versus the guy who takes his 335i to the dealer for everything.

[okusa]

Great response jphughan.

[Goat Rodeo]

I've owned both, a 335xi and two M3s, '11 or '13.

The M3s are the most reliable cars I've ever owned. Seems like 1% of owners have some issues otherwise they are ridiculously bulletproof considering the performance with very lengthy maintenance intervals. Anecdotally, while my friends 5-series sit in the shop frequently I've never had anything other than scheduled oil services on the Ms, and this is born out in some surveys that suggest the E9X M3 is the most reliable BMW, ever.

I would never say the same about the 335i - I did my research and found the car to be reliable in that it never left me stranded - but even fixing all the "known issues" that will (not if) crop up out of warranty will set you back 5K+.

M3s will cost more in gas and marginally more in tires but far less than replacing turbos. Other consumables are so infrequent and negligible in cost increase (oil, brakes) that I would doubt their cost would be noticed long-term. Will you notice an $80 difference in oil service cost ($180 vs $100) every 7500 miles?

I wouldn't hesitate to own a E9X M3 out of warranty - but probably would never own a 335 again.

[Flying Ace]

About the same for both. I think parts are more expensive with M3.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

About the same for both. I think parts are more expensive with M3.

It's hard to say, they have different types of issues.

Maintenance items for the M3, such as oil, plugs, filters, brakes, etc probably cost more.

But the 335i probably has a few problems that the M3s probably wont have, such as charge pipe, wastegate, hpfp, carbon build up, turbo issues, etc related issues.

The M3 does have a few known issues, throttle actuator,etc but I feel not as many as the 335i, or atleast they aren't widely known/common. But there is a heart breaker for the M3, rod bearings, if someone was to have that problem it would be a pretty huge set back if out of warranty.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by jphughan

You can't just look at reliability issues to determine long-term cost of ownership. While it's true that a particular M3 might be cheaper than a particular 335i if the latter happens to be a unit that develops lots of problems, the opposite scenario can also play out, so that doesn't seem like a good basis for comparison. The fact is that statistically an M3 will be noticeably more expensive, for lots of reasons. Consider:

- Gas: Not only is fuel economy noticeably down, but you'll enjoy driving it more, which means you'll rev it harder and probably put more miles on the car overall.

- Insurance: Call your insurer to ask, but it will be a hike. My friend pays more for his 335i than I do for my M3, but keeping the person constant, no question the M3 will be more.

- Tires: They're wider and larger, and they'll wear faster.

- Maintenance: 10W-60 oil alone is $15/liter (compared to like $5 for 10W-30), and the M3 takes 9 liters compared to 4-5. Non-BMW people are amazed that an M3 oil change can cost $180, but there you go. Pads and rotors are larger, and the rotors are drilled, so they'll cost more. Diff fluid is a little expensive (but infrequently needed) and the spark plugs aren't cheap either.

- Repairs: Most things on an M3 will be more expensive than a 335i, period. The engine has definitely proven to be more reliable overall, but don't think that will make it a bargain by any means.

Bottom line is look before you leap, and consider how much you're able to save in your current life situation. An M3 will definitely take a bite out of that on an ongoing basis. Whether it's worth it is a personal question. As I've said in the past, I believe that an M3's higher cost of ownership is only justifiable if the owner will take it to the track occasionally -- otherwise you're paying to own a car whose true colors you'll never experience, and thus I don't believe that such people get their money's worth (even if they think they do only because they don't know what they're missing.) But of course going to the track is a whole other level of cost -- though still a bargain on a fun per dollar basis IMHO.

But at the very least, hopefully you have some fun twisty roads near where you live that you'd take the time to go drive for fun. An M3 doomed to nothing but commuting on city streets and freeways is an M3 that will go utterly wasted.

Excellent response- you hit on so many different factors. This along with a few others were exactly the responses I was looking for. Basic maintenance stuff like oil, brakes and tires are just "pay to play" things in my book. I'm more concerned with bigger factors similar to turbos, hpfp issues and wastegate rattle.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by tdott

It depends on the type of person you are.

Someone who does all their own work and oil changes will spend less to maintain an M3 versus the guy who takes his 335i to the dealer for everything.

My thinking is, and this purely an assumption, that working on and maintaining a NA engine is easier than a FI engine. Obviously were talking about an M engine but NA nonetheless.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by tdott

It's hard to say, they have different types of issues.

Maintenance items for the M3, such as oil, plugs, filters, brakes, etc probably cost more.

But the 335i probably has a few problems that the M3s probably wont have, such as charge pipe, wastegate, hpfp, carbon build up, turbo issues, etc related issues.

The M3 does have a few known issues, throttle actuator,etc but I feel not as many as the 335i, or atleast they aren't widely known/common. But there is a heart breaker for the M3, rod bearings, if someone was to have that problem it would be a pretty huge set back if out of warranty.

good point, it really is a weight-average summation calculation of all
1. the probability of each defect
2. probability of payout with each defect (e.g. what is the probability owner is not covered under any type of original factory/emissions warranty AND known and unknown manufacturer recalls)
3. and labor + parts cost of each defect.

So say throttle actuator has a 40% overall incident probability, with a 30% payout probability (based on universe of all M3's sold in States with mandated emissions coverage) multiple by the parts & labor cost of the fix (say $900), the product of which is the weighted average cost of a throttle actuator fix.

Add this item up with the probability and payout products of:
100% known probably and payout items like oil changes and maintenance items,
and all other rare issues like rod bearings, 02 sensors then that's the true cost.


And then, if you want to get fancy, you can now add, cost of gas, insurance, and depreciation. All of which differ a bit between the two cars.

Phew! That is how you truly quantify which car costs more. No one other than BMW has these figures on a universal scale. And THIS is why they sell extended warranties at their prices, they know the weighted average costs and all the probability of failure and probability of payout figures.

[Flying Ace]

^ that said, my car has had 2 throttle actuator issues only. B/c I'm in CA, it was covered under emissions warranty.

So far, my total out of pocket costs (excluding gas/insurance/depreciation) for my ownership since 2010 was about 3 oil changes or about $450 or so.


Hard to believe huh? lol

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

So far, my total out of pocket costs (excluding gas/insurance/depreciation) for my ownership since 2010 was about 3 oil changes or about $450 or so.


Hard to believe huh? lol

That's amazing, assuming you bought it new right? How many miles have you put on it? I wonder what a similar 335i would have costs over the same period, new to same mileage.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by tdott

That's amazing, assuming you bought it new right? How many miles have you put on it? I wonder what a similar 335i would have costs over the same period, new to same mileage.

Ha! here is the best part, I did not buy it new.

I bought a 2008 model in 2010 for $46k with 8k miles (Cash, no financing cost). I now have about 42k on the car. I had the balance of factory warranty (1 claim for rear diff chatter, which I smartly complained about JUST as my warranty expired, thus giving me a FREE diff fluid change at around 25k miles), and I had about 2 years of free maintenance left which I was able to squeeze in the 30k maintenance schedule (at 26k miles) which included FREE spark plug change.

Yeah...I'm squeezing every penny on this car to make my ownership as cost effective as possible.


So now my car is worth say $35k (conservatively). So 4-year ownership with $11k depreciation, comes out to $229/month on depreciation alone. Don't think you can lease a M3 at this rate, and I didn't have to pay a "down payment" similar to a lease. Hell you can't even lease a $30k Lexus under $300/month.


I sleep very well every night on top of a pile of cash.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by tdott

That's amazing, assuming you bought it new right? How many miles have you put on it? I wonder what a similar 335i would have costs over the same period, new to same mileage.

That is exactly my idea in making this thread.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Ha! here is the best part, I did not buy it new.

I bought a 2008 model in 2010 for $46k with 8k miles (Cash, no financing cost). I now have about 42k on the car. I had the balance of factory warranty (1 claim for rear diff chatter, which I smartly complained about JUST as my warranty expired, thus giving me a FREE diff fluid change at around 25k miles), and I had about 2 years of free maintenance left which I was able to squeeze in the 30k maintenance schedule (at 26k miles) which included FREE spark plug change.

Yeah...I'm squeezing every penny on this car to make my ownership as cost effective as possible.


So now my car is worth say $35k (conservatively). So 4-year ownership with $11k depreciation, comes out to $229/month on depreciation alone. Don't think you can lease a M3 at this rate, and I didn't have to pay a "down payment" similar to a lease. Hell you can't even lease a $30k Lexus under $300/month.


I sleep very well every night on top of a pile of cash.

That's a fantastic way to look at it. Thanks for breaking it down for me in those terms.

[Flying Ace]

^well the best way to do it is what I wrote regarding probabilities and cost in post #14. My ownership experience might be atypical b/c well...nothing really went wrong, and the 3 defects that did occur were covered.