Edmunds Inside Line - No M1, probably 135is instead

[ArabianSensation]

I want to see an M1 as much as the next guy, but wouldn't an M1 kind of cut into the M3 market? Unless they see it as competing with cars like the 370z (which the 135i already does) I don't understand why BMW would waste time making a car that would make the M3 basically useless... The M3 is a sportscar, the M5 is a large touring (not in the hatchback sense of the word) car and the M6 is a GT car... So an M1 would just be another small sportscar to compete with the M3.

The M1 can't have more power than the M3, so the fact that BMW would want to just upgrade the N54 and some other components (like in the 335is) would make sense.

Therefore, regardless of it being called an M1 or a 135is, it will be almost the same car save for a few M styling components. And if you want those, buy the M Package.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by ArabianSensation

I want to see an M1 as much as the next guy, but wouldn't an M1 kind of cut into the M3 market? Unless they see it as competing with cars like the 370z (which the 135i already does) I don't understand why BMW would waste time making a car that would make the M3 basically useless... The M3 is a sportscar, the M5 is a large touring (not in the hatchback sense of the word) car and the M6 is a GT car... So an M1 would just be another small sportscar to compete with the M3.

The M1 can't have more power than the M3, so the fact that BMW would want to just upgrade the N54 and some other components (like in the 335is) would make sense.

Therefore, regardless of it being called an M1 or a 135is, it will be almost the same car save for a few M styling components. And if you want those, buy the M Package.

The 135i doesnt compete with the 370Z. How would an M1 make an M3 useless? Thats the same argument that was made by 335i owners when the 135i came out. Thats been proven to be false.

Since when has the E9X M3 been a small sports car? Its getting quite large, and heavy. It hs become a GT, a very capable GT, but a GT nontheless.

The fact of the matter is that BMW no longer has a small, less is more, sports coupe. Thats the void that the M1 would fill.

[Evan135]

I have no dog in this fight, but think the idea of an M1 will happen. BMW made 2 SUV's into M vehicles, X5M and X6M, and they said they never would. And these vehicles compete at some level with the M5 in utility and price, similar to how the M1 might compete with the M3. And there are other considerations.

One is the Audi A3 RS, which is scheduled to get the 5 cylinder 335hp, 332lb-ft torque motor from the TT RS. BMW has to have an answer to that car in many markets. Especially after recent reviews where Audi has been doing better compared to BMW. I don't think an "135is" version would cut it against this 4-wheel drive hot rod.

Another consideration is that the tooling for a lot of the M1 is done and paid for. How many people on this site have raided the BMW parts bin for M3 wishbones, strut rods, sway bars, rear suspension components? Why would BMW not do the same thing as a last hurrah for this chassis? The new M3 is coming and BMW should not care about using dated M3 technology in the M1 when the new M3 will improve upon it.

Also the pictures of the supposed M1 mules have much wider tracks front and rear. They look like they might have the track width of a M3? Just use the M3 subframes and components. How easy would that be to do when you modify the fenders for it, which most M's tend to do.

Even the engine for an M1 kind of makes sense. It could be a lower powered version of the next M3 engine. To be light it might be the Aluminum- Magnesium block to save weight and could use the successful sequential turbo setup that typically yields both low speed and high rpm performance.

Anyway, the Audi A3 RS is enough for me to believe there will be an M1 alone.

[Garduna]

Lots of ppl won't even bother with a 135is. Sure it'll be better than a 135i but I'm certain the target price will be badly placed. Plus, you'll get more buyers with M badge instead of a little "is".

On the topic of Megan Fox. She's good but her thumbs are the WORST!!! BLAH!

[emm3tt]

This thing sounds as dead as the E34 M5 Convertible. //sigh

[numba1guju]

Originally Posted by southlight

Fine, let's do a short summary on what we've got that speaks for an M1 so far and what we've got that speaks against it:

There'll be an E82 M1

• Dr Kay Segler, CEO of BMW ///M, told German Auto Motor und Sport in November 2009:
  "Currently, we concentrate on evaluating the feasibility to produce an M variant based on the current generation 1 series. [...]
  Usually, the development for such a car needs 3 years. But, we're planning to communicate the first details on the car around Christmas 2010
  with its market launch scheduled for Spring 2011".
  

• Several spy pictures of an M1 prototype being tested, both in Germany and in Scandinavia
  (for example: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351072)
  

• Teaser pictures of M1 details, including wheel design, front design, rear quarter and side profile teasers.
  

• Scott providing detailed information on the features and design options of the car.
  

• Mario Theissen, director of BMW Motorsport Division, when asked whether it's too late for an M version of the current 1 series:
  "Yes, certainly, it is too late, although you can always look forward to it… but I cannot talk about product plans for the future”.

There won't be an E82 M1

• No appearance of the M1 Concept at Geneva 2010

• Edmunds Inside Line Blog citing a source inside BMW:
  "'If we do something, it'll be a 135is like we've done with the Z4 and the 3 Series,'
  the source told us with a wink."

• Different publications considering above mentioned spy shots to be early mules of the next generation 1 series

• Mario Theissen, director of BMW Motorsport Division, when asked whether it's too late for an M version of the current 1 series:
  "Yes, certainly, it is too late, although you can always look forward to it… but I cannot talk about product plans for the future”.

I'd like to let everybody decide for themselves what to believe and what not to believe.

If I forgot anything which should be in this list, please comment and I'll add it.


Best regards,
south

im with southlight...i still have faith...i mean come on kay seglers words over edmunds any day

[e46monk3y]

Originally Posted by ARES45

I definitely wouldn't pay an extra 10 grand over a base 135 for an 'is' version. For ten grand I would take my chances with the tuners. My 135 is already half way through it's warranty period anyway. I would pay ten grand more for an m version. But not for just a tuned 135 which I what an 'is' would be.

Very true.
and has anyone forgotten the performance upgrade you can buy directly from bmw for your 135i which doesn't void warranty and , excuse me if I'm wrong maximises output to 320hp anyways?
so basically the 135'IS' would stand for 135 i [s]uspension?

I am holding out hope there is a 135///M coming and they're being sneaky about it

[Beemer323]

Sad news peoples...looks like an 'M1' may not be...

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/04/r...135is-instead/

[Beemer323]

Originally Posted by ArabianSensation

I want to see an M1 as much as the next guy, but wouldn't an M1 kind of cut into the M3 market?

Wow good point...by your logic, the M3 GTS would maul M3 sales...

Ever notice the interior of a 1er is somewhat more cramped than a 3?

Horses for courses.

[kinan_sleiman2006]

Shocking news

[Replay]

Does anyone know what Lexus are doing? I heard they were soon to be releasing a "1 Series".

What I’m thinking is that we will only see an M1 if Lexus start selling a 1 Series ISF equivalent. There are some fast Ford, Vauxhall, VW and Audi around in this model size but these are all front wheel drive and don't directly compete with the 1 Series. I think the Lexus would be the kick that is required to get BMW moving.

[Xyloft]

maybe that widebody kit we've been seeing is just a prototype 1 series GT3 car?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

Please state your source.

I've already stated my reasoning earlier in this thread. There's no way in HELL BMW is doing a widebody for an IS model, and there's no way that test mule will work without one.

The test mule is VERY obviously an M1, and it's very far along.

[anthonypb]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Anyway, the Audi A3 RS is enough for me to believe there will be an M1 alone.

Agreed - I'd be amazed if BMW don't have a car to compete with the RS3. But surely an improved 135is would be a match for an RS3 which is expected to have 335bhp?
The main competition for the 135is would be the RS badge not the car imo. The TTRS has been heavily criticised by the motoring press over here for its lack of excitement and involvement, is there anything to say the RS3 will be any different?
Audi's policy of producing one RS version at a time makes a lot of sense really, as they don't have the issue of will an RS3 cannibalise sales of an RS4. Mind you they are churning them out with increased frequency these days.

[and 1]

Originally Posted by Garduna

On the topic of Megan Fox. She's good but her thumbs are the WORST!!! BLAH!

i guess i could look pASSt that

tee hee

[cotmfk]

Too bad, so sad.

[LemonOne]

Like I said before, this car shouldn't be called M1!

[RäDIOCLäSH]

So what this has really been about from the start is a bunch of cosmetic sh*t that BMW Performance will gladly sell you for a bloated price.All that "customization" that our recently extinct "friend" alluded to in his insider fashion was nothing more than glorified "tinsel" for the tree!?
...hey, anyone wanna buy an "s" to add to your "i".

....here comes the M1 in to land!...noooooo!

[Small Yellow]

Originally Posted by LemonOne

Like I said before, this car shouldn't be called M1!

+1

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RäDIOCLäSH

So what this has really been about from the start is a bunch of cosmetic sh*t that BMW Performance will gladly sell you for a bloated price.All that "customization" that our recently extinct "friend" alluded to in his insider fashion was nothing more than glorified "tinsel" for the tree!?
...hey, anyone wanna buy an "s" to add to your "i".

....here comes the M1 in to land!...noooooo!

This isn't comsmetic BS:

[ArabianSensation]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

The 135i doesnt compete with the 370Z. How would an M1 make an M3 useless? Thats the same argument that was made by 335i owners when the 135i came out. Thats been proven to be false.

Since when has the E9X M3 been a small sports car? Its getting quite large, and heavy. It hs become a GT, a very capable GT, but a GT nontheless.

The fact of the matter is that BMW no longer has a small, less is more, sports coupe. Thats the void that the M1 would fill.

I've seen plenty of 135i vs 370z comparisons. Both make around the same power and both are sport oriented cars. Both of them are also at about the same price point.

The problem is that the M3 should have been a small sports coupe... and it was, at least until the E9X... The M3 is in a very awkward position if the M1 comes out... not quite a sportscar and not quite a GT.... although I don't think that will effect M3 sales in the least.

Plus you have to think about what customers are going to perceive the product as being. An M1 would essentially be a smaller, cheaper version of the M3 with similar performance figures. A 135is would be an upgraded version of the 135, not quite an M1, but significantly better than the 135. There's definitely a sweet spot where the M1 could fit, the problem is that BMW needs to find it. I just don't see an M1 and 135is existing, I think it'll be one or the other.

Originally Posted by Beemer323

Wow good point...by your logic, the M3 GTS would maul M3 sales...

Ever notice the interior of a 1er is somewhat more cramped than a 3?

Horses for courses.

For one thing, the M3 GTS is produced in very limited numbers and not available in the US. Another, that's like saying the F430 Scuderia competes with the regular F430. The GTS is a track toy while the M3 is a more practical car.

The M1 is a practical sportscar. The M3 is a practical sportscar. If the size difference is enough to make you feel the M1 is necessary then so be it... doesn't bother me, I'm just making a point why BMW would want to skip either the M1 or 135is.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by ArabianSensation

I've seen plenty of 135i vs 370z comparisons. Both make around the same power and both are sport oriented cars. Both of them are also at about the same price point.

The problem is that the M3 should have been a small sports coupe... and it was, at least until the E9X... The M3 is in a very awkward position if the M1 comes out... not quite a sportscar and not quite a GT.... although I don't think that will effect M3 sales in the least.

Plus you have to think about what customers are going to perceive the product as being. An M1 would essentially be a smaller, cheaper version of the M3 with similar performance figures. A 135is would be an upgraded version of the 135, not quite an M1, but significantly better than the 135. There's definitely a sweet spot where the M1 could fit, the problem is that BMW needs to find it. I just don't see an M1 and 135is existing, I think it'll be one or the other.



For one thing, the M3 GTS is produced in very limited numbers and not available in the US. Another, that's like saying the F430 Scuderia competes with the regular F430. The GTS is a track toy while the M3 is a more practical car.

The M1 is a practical sportscar. The M3 is a practical sportscar. If the size difference is enough to make you feel the M1 is necessary then so be it... doesn't bother me, I'm just making a point why BMW would want to skip either the M1 or 135is.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The case for the 135is, from a business standpoint, is much easier to make than one for an M1. The 135is could be created much more easily, IMO. Look how easily they were able to do it with the 3er!

A proper M1 will take a lot of R&D and testing, to make the car worthy of the name it would inhabit. It seems, based on the timelines of other BMWs coming to market, that there is not sufficient time or resources to get the M1 to markets in enough time to be profitable while the E82 platform is still being used...

To me, the car not being at Geneva really said something. In the other thread, Scott said something about other car makers having hybrids or whatnot being debuted as concepts--to which I answer, who cares? Are we now only going to see concepts based on what other car makers are doing, instead of BMW providing what their customers want? Because there are plenty of people who want an M1....

And instead we will get some compromised version of the 135, which will only create interest in people who would buy a 135....whereas an M1 would create interest across many different segments of BMW owners....such a dumb move by BMW.....