09-22-2018, 11:52 AM | #45 | ||
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09-22-2018, 12:16 PM | #46 | |
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TORQUE KILLS ENGINES, our stock turbo on 20psi is more dangerous then a big turbo on 24psi (not precise numbers just making a point) With the larger turbo your going to allow the torque peak to build instead of the instant ramp up our stock turbo creates, our stock turbo kills our motor when over boosted because its so small. Running and MHI turbo or Dinan Big turbo is your best bet to run 23psi much safer. 23psi on these two turbos will be better on your internals while making more power because its a gradual torque build up. I get special pricing on N20/6 Dinan Big turbo if anyones interested in a Group Buy, $1,100 Shipped straight from Dinan, straight Bolt on.
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09-22-2018, 12:54 PM | #47 | |
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So on the same tune, say a PTF OTS map, the bigger turbo will be safe because it builds boost more gradually? Isn't it about the tune not the turbo? I understand that the size of the stock turbo makes it really peaky, but with an OTS map that's designed for the stock turbo, won't the power band be just as peaky?
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09-22-2018, 01:12 PM | #48 | |
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The boost peak hits quick on this turbo but its just a tad slower to hit peak boost than the dangerous stock turbo we have now, maybe a .5-1.5 seconds longer to hit max boost at most which is a world of difference on the internals but once it hits max boost you will continue to pull and pull. Ots map u should see a 1-1.5 extra psi over your current tune because greater airflow on this turbo. Making 22-24psi on Dinan turbo or MHI turbo the stress it creates id assume its equivalent to making 18-20 psi on stock turbo as far as the stress on the internals. so its a much safer 22-24psi
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09-22-2018, 02:30 PM | #49 | |
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09-22-2018, 04:47 PM | #50 | |
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09-22-2018, 06:03 PM | #51 | |
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Also, I don't know that you'll make more boost pressure by running the same tune with a bigger turbo. The target boost will stay the same and the MAP will still recognize when you hit target and keep you there and ideally won't let you go over. I don't think just bolting on a bigger turbo will instantly make more psi. Boost pressure is in the tune, not the turbo, is basically what I'm thinking. That's not to say you won't hit the target more easily with the bigger turbo, as it'll be working much less hard than the stock one to hit 22psi or whatever, but I still don't think just a bigger turbo without being tuned for it will increase boots pressure.
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09-23-2018, 11:20 AM | #52 | |
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Also With OTS it WILL be safer and take longer to spool because the compressor weighs slightly more than stock compressor meaning more weight and a slight lag in the time it takes to fully spool, Addition to this because of the more surface area inside the turbo the time it takes for the exhaust gasses to make its full pass within the turbo is increased Sure its not much but you cant argue that its something and that in itself is safer than the stock turbo time.
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09-23-2018, 12:26 PM | #53 | |
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Gotcha. That explanation makes sense. That being said, say you do run an extra 2 pounds of boost with a bigger turbo on an OTS map, that'd put you at 24.5 psi theoretically. So even with the heavier compressor shifting the power curve slightly to the right, don't you think that extra two pounds will harm the engine more than the shifting of the curve will help it? I know I wouldn't want to run 24 psi on my N20, because we've seen ring land failures at that type of pressure, regardless of where the peak torque is. Also interested to see what BunkerJ has to say.
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09-23-2018, 03:50 PM | #54 | |
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09-23-2018, 07:03 PM | #55 | |
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09-24-2018, 04:23 AM | #56 | |
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09-24-2018, 04:34 AM | #57 | |
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09-24-2018, 06:54 AM | #58 | ||
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What I gleaned from this is that they too, would agree that the extra power (assuming same tune) comes from the larger turbo flowing larger volumes of air than the stock turbo, at significantly cooler temperatures (that little turbo spinning as fast as it can generates a lot of heat, which is eliminated by a bigger turbo). They also mentioned 20% gains without increasing boost. So, issaf32, I very respectfully am gonna stick to my original statement that just the larger turbo won't increase boost. You might pick up a half a psi or something but I'm not counting that lol. The benefit I think is that you flow a lot more air, quantitatively, at the same pressure or boost level, thus making more power.
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09-24-2018, 09:33 AM | #59 |
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When you're talking about the safety of the engine, we have two concerns: throwing a rod (as a result from a broken rod bolt) and blowing the piston ring. The former is going to happen when either car is operating at a high, consistent power delivery (Track use) and the torque destroys the hot, weakened bolts. We aren't sure how much the stock bolts could take from use just on a strip or street use, but I'd garner to say that it's within 100lbs of the track cars that pushed 350 and threw rods left and right. The other is due to too high of pressure in the cylinder. We've had what, two guys now that have overboosted (JB4) into the 25 range and rings in one or multiple cylinders were destroyed.
You have to be sure you differentiate between lb/min and psi here. Pressure is pressure. 22psi in a small turbo and 22psi in a large turbo both exert the same amount force here. Now the difference in flow rate or CFM, is the difference. At 22psi, the smaller turbo could be pushing only a measly 30lb/min of air and fall on its face in the higher RPM band due to a low air velocity and not being able to keep up with requirements of the car. To make up for this, you can spin the turbo faster to increase PSI and hope to push more air into the cylinders, but as you push it out of its efficiency range, the charged air temp rises and you lose density and overall air volume. On a bigger turbo pushing 22psi, you could be pushing 50 lb/min and thus be making more power due to a higher volume of air. The deficiencies of the smaller turbo become advantages of the big turbo, just like how the advantages of the smaller turbo become the disadvantage of the bigger turbo. So, rjdnyy224 , your last statement is correct that a larger turbo here is delivering more consistent power in the higher RPM range. Does it shift the power curve at all? Depends on the turbo. MHI/Dinan and similar will likely not shift it. They are "bigger" turbos, but not like what you'd think. They're still Twinscroll and spin up just as quick as the stock turbo, it just operates more efficiently in the top end. Swapping in this turbo isn't going to change your boost on the same tune, as I've already logged this and there are no differences there. Hunter and I have also seen this difference on the street. Back when we were rocking the same parts and tune, I had my turbo replaced with MHI. I initially thought it was generating more lag but turned out to just be an adaptation thing. We later (safely and legally) raced each other from I think a 40 roll. He still took off ahead in the beginning, but I'm going to say that it was from AWD + some quick honking ; however, the entire way up was me creeping up on him and by 90-100, I was eclipsing him. Now, his AWD contributed to that factor as well but my creep wasn't that grand before in previous races. So, I think the only other point I saw in here was regarding the torque curve. In the end, you're only going to want to shift it if you're putting in a turbo that spools quicker and making bigger numbers. BM3 thankfully has a reduction in boost by gear, and that would easily solve it. You could work with your tuner to shift it also but the turbo itself isn't going to shift it until you get to a bigger one (and I mean much bigger). Also, the MHI turbo is rated for 32psi but good luck, have fun. I think that's it. Please tell me if I missed something. It's 7:30 and I'm still drinking my first cup of Joe for the day.
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09-24-2018, 09:36 AM | #60 |
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Well, it's imperative that you get a log supporting that because until then, you're going against all known results. I'm not going to 100% doubt you and deny the possibility but without evidence, it's hard to tell and even then, it can still remain questionable. If you simply saw it on the app, it was likely a blip in the system. JB4 and other piggyback aren't delivering exact DME results, so now you have to rely upon the voltage going through a wire AND the piggyback hardware AND firmware AND recording software vs. a flash, which is relying on the DME's results and only skewing would be based on the interpretation through the software.
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09-24-2018, 09:39 AM | #61 | |
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09-24-2018, 09:41 AM | #62 | |
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Unfortunately, we'll have discard that 30psi capability at this time. While I don't doubt that you saw 30 pop up on the app, it was just a glitch. I've had a similar one occur on the Dinan Sport+ where it read 29psi as a peak. Good luck on the B48.
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09-24-2018, 09:48 AM | #63 | |
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So what kind of power increase do you think you'd see going from stock to MHI sticking with BM3 OTS Stg. 2? It sounds like it won't be all that much.
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09-24-2018, 09:59 AM | #64 | |
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09-24-2018, 10:41 AM | #65 | |
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So, having experienced the transition first hand, is the MHI's ability to keep up higher in the revs something you can notice easily? I know you mentioned that you started pulling on a stock turbo car on the big end, but is it something you'll notice easily, feel wise, during pulls, or is it something you'll only see in dyno graphs?
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09-24-2018, 10:59 AM | #66 | |
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