▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"

[REDBULL]

My bearings after 21,358 miles. 7500 oil change intervals, and the last oil change before bearing change was done at 5000 miles. Break in procedure was followed, a few minute warm ups before drive off then driven under 3k RPMs until warmed up. On the bright side, even wear!

replaced with WPC treated bearings.

[chris719]

Wow, your bottom shells look worse than most that we have seen, considering the mileage anyway.

Do you plan to pull the WPC bearings ever to look at them?

[momo3605]

REDBULL, you had a 2010 M3 that ALSO had rod bearing issues? oh man! And your 2012 is also pretty bad. Yikes

Also, has anyone checked on their WPC treated bearings to see how they are doing after 10k+miles?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by momo3605

REDBULL, you had a 2010 M3 that ALSO had rod bearing issues? oh man! And your 2012 is also pretty bad. Yikes

Also, has anyone checked on their WPC treated bearings to see how they are doing after 10k+miles?

Not sure if anyone would do it all over again so soon, unless oil analysis reports indicated a problem was present.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Not sure if anyone would do it all over again so soon, unless oil analysis reports indicated a problem was present.

I'll offer a prediction. For the same car at the same mileage, with or without a SC added, using the same oil change regimen, the bearing wear during the second round with these treated bearings will be insignificantly different or worse. Why, there isn't really a substantial change to the bearings.

[REDBULL]

Originally Posted by chris719

Wow, your bottom shells look worse than most that we have seen, considering the mileage anyway.

Do you plan to pull the WPC bearings ever to look at them?

I eventually do. maybe in 20k miles or so

Originally Posted by momo3605

REDBULL, you had a 2010 M3 that ALSO had rod bearing issues? oh man! And your 2012 is also pretty bad. Yikes

Also, has anyone checked on their WPC treated bearings to see how they are doing after 10k+miles?

I just think rod bearings need to be monitored and eventually changed on the M3 if you plan to keep it long term. my previous one was used, so i can't speak to how that one was maintained.

[REDBULL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'll offer a prediction. For the same car at the same mileage, with or without a SC added, using the same oil change regimen, the bearing wear during the second round with these treated bearings will be insignificantly different or worse. Why, there isn't really a substantial change to the bearings.

you can't say that there isn't a change. you can read more about the process here: http://www.wpctreatment.com/about.htm

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by REDBULL

you can't say that there isn't a change. you can read more about the process here: http://www.wpctreatment.com/about.htm

What I said is that there is not a substantial change, at least dimensionally, and there isn't. This is essentially shot-peeing or work hardending which is a well known process. However, I have some questions as to its affects on a complex, soft and multi-layer structure such as a journal bearing.

The next obvious question, if the process really can harden such a surface, is harder better? Harder is probably universally better on journals, but bearings?? A great deal goes into trying to answer that question but the general answer is not always.

Personally this appears to be somewhat gimmicky and there is likely little data for it benefits on bearings and surely there is zero data for the particular wear issues if and when accelerated in the S65.

When someone pulls apart their bottom end after an equivalent use of these and we can get a fair apples to apples comparison I'll more than readily change my mind. Until then....

[Mrbig]

So from what I read mileage break in on new bearings is not necessary ! 100-200 miles tops ???

[REDBULL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

What I said is that there is not a substantial change, at least dimensionally, and there isn't. This is essentially shot-peeing or work hardending which is a well known process. However, I have some questions as to its affects on a complex, soft and multi-layer structure such as a journal bearing.

The next obvious question, if the process really can harden such a surface, is harder better? Harder is probably universally better on journals, but bearings?? A great deal goes into trying to answer that question but the general answer is not always.

Personally this appears to be somewhat gimmicky and there is likely little data for it benefits on bearings and surely there is zero data for the particular wear issues if and when accelerated in the S65.

When someone pulls apart their bottom end after an equivalent use of these and we can get a fair apples to apples comparison I'll more than readily change my mind. Until then....

in 20k miles i hope to pull the bearings out and see how they compare

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by REDBULL

My bearings after 21,358 miles. 7500 oil change intervals, and the last oil change before bearing change was done at 5000 miles. Break in procedure was followed, a few minute warm ups before drive off then driven under 3k RPMs until warmed up. On the bright side, even wear!

replaced with WPC treated bearings.

Those bearings should have never made it past Quality Control to start with. The surface is not flat, the lines that run across the bearings means it is a bad machining process. When we see that is usually indicates a chipped tool bit from factory, then they spray the coating on them and it covers it up.

[REDBULL]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Those bearings should have never made it past Quality Control to start with. The surface is not flat, the lines that run across the bearings means it is a bad machining process. When we see that is usually indicates a chipped tool bit from factory, then they spray the coating on them and it covers it up.

pretty cool that you can see all that from the pic! i'm glad i swapped them when i did. the WPC bearings looked really good. glad i went with them vs coated bearings.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by REDBULL

pretty cool that you can see all that from the pic! i'm glad i swapped them when i did. the WPC bearings looked really good. glad i went with them vs coated bearings.

Good choice on the bearings over the coated ones. I look at rod and main bearings about every other day. That stuff pops right out. If you took a wrist pin and rolled it across the bearing surface you can feel the bump bump bump across the face of the bearing. Should have never been in the motor to start with.

[chris719]

The bearing is intended to be "sacrificial" right? So if the WPC coating makes them even harder, is it a bad thing for the journals?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by chris719

The bearing is intended to be "sacrificial" right?

Absolutely. Damage should be to throw away parts well over damage to something like the crankshaft.

Originally Posted by chris719

So if the WPC coating makes them even harder, is it a bad thing for the journals?

This is one point I was getting at just prior. The common sense answer is yes, but it may be worse, may not be. Journal bearing tribology is darn complex...

Either way, without data, seems pretty gimmicky to me.

[REDBULL]

Originally Posted by chris719

The bearing is intended to be "sacrificial" right? So if the WPC coating makes them even harder, is it a bad thing for the journals?

"WPC is not a coating, it is a treatment that enhances the surface to reduce friction and strengthen engine parts."

check out the About section on their site. Good info and detailed breakdown about the treatment.

[chris719]

I read that, their own info says it makes the surface harder. The question is: if you accept that contact is inevitable on an S65, would you run the risk of damaging your crank instead of just wearing your bearings? I doubt it but I am curious.

Their info shows the surface treatment enhances oil retention and lowers friction, so it may be quite helpful.

Unrelated question: what metals should we be looking for as wear indicators in a lead free bearing?

[M3Guy]

I'm wanting to drop a ess 625 kit on my 2011 e92 but this whole rod bearing issue is holding me back. How common is this problem?

[chris719]

If I were supercharging I'd definitely pull them, but that's me. Total failure doesn't seem to be that common but no one has pulled a really nice looking set even out of stock motors.

[M2Crew]

Originally Posted by chris719

I read that, their own info says it makes the surface harder. The question is: if you accept that contact is inevitable on an S65, would you run the risk of damaging your crank instead of just wearing your bearings? I doubt it but I am curious.

Their info shows the surface treatment enhances oil retention and lowers friction, so it may be quite helpful.

Unrelated question: what metals should we be looking for as wear indicators in a lead free bearing?

That's a valid concern. Note that it's certainly possible to harden the bearings without significantly increasing the risk of crank journal damage. As long as the journal remains harder than the bearing, we should be relatively safe.

[Mpowered]

No one has pulled treated bearings to see if they are holding up better than non-treated bearings yet?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Mpowered

No one has pulled treated bearings to see if they are holding up better than non-treated bearings yet?

momo3605 asked a similar question in post #268.

Not sure if anyone would pull bearings again so soon, unless oil analysis reports indicated a problem was present.