[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by WickedBMW

How much is it going to cost to fix these cars? How long will EV last? What will be done with spent batteries? Do we have infrastructure to dispose these batteries? What’s the environmental impact of these batteries?

Much of this has been studied and the reports are out there if you want to look for them. And of course it's much prediction but w/ Tesla and others becoming mainstream actual data is coming around as well. There aren't too many concrete answers but just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean no one has considered it or that it must be bad. If you know something telling us things are headed the wrong direction, please share, it'd be an interesting read and maybe we'll all learn something.

Originally Posted by R N M

Whoever asks them is labeled denier of Global Warming.

Nonsense.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by WickedBMW

No one is talking about how these EV cars are more expensive than ICE cars. How much is it going to cost to fix these cars? How long will EV last? What will be done with spent batteries? Do we have infrastructure to dispose these batteries? What’s the environmental impact of these batteries?

How much does a M5 engine cost?

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Much of this has been studied and the reports are out there if you want to look for them. And of course it's much prediction but w/ Tesla and others becoming mainstream actual data is coming around as well. There aren't too many concrete answers but just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean no one has considered it or that it must be bad. If you know something telling us things are headed the wrong direction, please share, it'd be an interesting read and maybe we'll all learn something.



Nonsense.

Oh yea who needs ICE when you can drive around in a portable c4 bomb on skateboard

https://www.bitchute.com/video/tMp2Fg9fiRbN/?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

but w/ Tesla and others becoming mainstream actual data is coming around as well.

Exactly - roughly 95%+ of the batteries will be "mineable" and there's already a competition race happening to see who can get there first with Redwood Materials (started by a former Tesla exec JB Straubel) in the lead.

ICE is going to trigger a massive economic boom.

It's ironic to hear presumable capitalists say "but there's no BEV infrastructure" or "but there's no battery recycling" as if that's a bad thing - definitely a Sharktank audition fail: "so what's your product?" "nuthin cuz all the good ideas are taken!"

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:



The key was the top part: Amazon realized if they passed on their growth cost leverage savings to customers that would generate more traffic which would encourage more sellers and on & on lighting up a growth flywheel (while also destroying competitors without even trying)

BEVs light up the exact same flywheel with one key difference: battery & manufacturing technology has barely begun to deliver cost leverage ...

Basically BEVs are Amazon circa 1999. Except x1,000.

[grannyknot]

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:


I'm not seeing economic slave labour in that graphic.

[grannyknot]

[QUOTE=GrussGott;28207391]

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:





I'm not seeing economic slave labour in that graphic, that's how they made it affordable.

[Patton250]

[QUOTE=grannyknot;28207821]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:





I'm not seeing economic slave labour in that graphic, that's how they made it affordable.

Plus EV’s have something Amazon never had. Governments forcing it on the people. That’s a hell of a business plan if you ask me. I would love it if government would force all my competitors out and the consumer to buy my products. That would be bad ass.

Now listen folks, please don’t embarrass yourself by coming in here and saying that’s not happening.

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by R N M

All these are unpopular questions!

Whoever asks them is labeled denier of Global Warming.

I think these are reasonable questions, actually. I'd point out that JB Straubel, Tesla's co-founder and CTO, left a couple of years ago and started up a firm called Redwood Materials, which is aiming to recycle lithium-ion batteries (such as from EVs) at scale.

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:

I'm not seeing economic slave labour in that graphic.

Amazon's average starting wage in fulfillment centers is now at $18/hour, with some locations paying as much as $22.50/hour. They recently announced they will pay full college tuition for front-line employees. And Amazon's hourly workers at Amazon receive exactly the same benefits as their salaried workers: 401(k) with matching, health insurance, parental leave, you name it.

I'd be happy to go into more detail. I might know a bit about it. ;-)

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Plus EV’s have something Amazon never had. Governments forcing it on the people. That’s a hell of a business plan if you ask me. I would love it if government would force all my competitors out and the consumer to buy my products. That would be bad ass.

Now listen folks, please don’t embarrass yourself by coming in here and saying that’s not happening.

Every government in the world—every single one—creates policies that encourage and discourage certain behaviors. Sometimes these policies are pseudo-externality-based pricing, such as high taxes on alcohol and tobacco, both of which carry high societal costs. Sometimes these are investments to encourage a thing the government (in theory, representing the will of the people) thinks is good, such as building high-speed rail. Sometimes these are in response to perceived public demand, such as building and expanding interstate freeways.

All of these—whether investments, subsidies, or taxes; whether to encourage or discourage—have the same broad result, which is to alter public behavior. Raise alcohol taxes? People drink less. Make high-speed rail cheaper? People travel more by train. Build more, larger freeways? People commute longer distances.

If you want to argue that the US providing tax credits for EVs is "forcing" people to buy them, then you should be equally willing to argue that the US investing more in roads and less in mass transit (compared to, say, European nations) is "forcing" people to buy cars. I'd use the term "encouraging", but okay.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Exactly - roughly 95%+ of the batteries will be "mineable" and there's already a competition race happening to see who can get there first with Redwood Materials (started by a former Tesla exec JB Straubel) in the lead.

ICE is going to trigger a massive economic boom.

It's ironic to hear presumable capitalists say "but there's no BEV infrastructure" or "but there's no battery recycling" as if that's a bad thing - definitely a Sharktank audition fail: "so what's your product?" "nuthin cuz all the good ideas are taken!"

Reminds me of Amazon in the 2000s: nobody understood how they'd make home delivery affordable but it turned out it was a simple model:



The key was the top part: Amazon realized if they passed on their growth cost leverage savings to customers that would generate more traffic which would encourage more sellers and on & on lighting up a growth flywheel (while also destroying competitors without even trying)

BEVs light up the exact same flywheel with one key difference: battery & manufacturing technology has barely begun to deliver cost leverage ...

Basically BEVs are Amazon circa 1999. Except x1,000.

Uuhhhh NO

Amazon became widely used because the US govt SUBSIDIZED every shipment that went out

Same thing with Te$la which has not turned into a profitsble company ever, has been subsidized to the tune of billions by the US govt to keep it afloat

If the worlds biggest govt and cia/other agencies want to turn you into a success , believe me they will with today's controlled fake news media

The rules of a normal company dont apply here

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

Uuhhhh NO

Amazon became widely used because the US govt SUBSIDIZED every shipment that went out

Same thing with Te$la which has not turned into a profitsble company ever, has been subsidized to the tune of billions by the US govt to keep it afloat

If the worlds biggest govt and cia/other agencies want to turn you into a success , believe me they will with today's controlled fake news media

The rules of a normal company dont apply here

With regard to Amazon... I don't know what you're referring to. Can you provide details, preferably with sources?

As for Tesla, I assume you're talking about their regulatory credits and/or Federal EV tax credits. Well, in their most recent quarter, their net income (per GAAP) was $1.618 billion with $279 million of that coming from regulatory credits; therefore, their profit would have been $1.339 billion without those credits. And as for the Federal EV tax credits that reduce the cost of their vehicles, those ran out at the end of 2019. So again... I have no idea to what you're referring.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Every government in the world—every single one—creates policies that encourage and discourage certain behaviors. Sometimes these policies are pseudo-externality-based pricing, such as high taxes on alcohol and tobacco, both of which carry high societal costs. Sometimes these are investments to encourage a thing the government (in theory, representing the will of the people) thinks is good, such as building high-speed rail. Sometimes these are in response to perceived public demand, such as building and expanding interstate freeways.

All of these—whether investments, subsidies, or taxes; whether to encourage or discourage—have the same broad result, which is to alter public behavior. Raise alcohol taxes? People drink less. Make high-speed rail cheaper? People travel more by train. Build more, larger freeways? People commute longer distances.

If you want to argue that the US providing tax credits for EVs is "forcing" people to buy them, then you should be equally willing to argue that the US investing more in roads and less in mass transit (compared to, say, European nations) is "forcing" people to buy cars. I'd use the term "encouraging", but okay.

Well they shouldn’t. They should stay the hell out of the private sectors business. Governments job is to protect the country from other countries. But that’s a different discussion.

What I’m telling you is EV‘s wouldn’t have a chance if it was it being forced upon us by government. And it’s not like they’re only giving credits. They are mandating it. That means it’s mandatory for all you folks that went to public school. That’s a joke by the way. In other words they are interfering with the free flow of capitalism and whenever they do that it screws up everything. Especially something as silly as EV‘s. Anybody that pays any attention knows they cause just as much carbon buildup as ice does they just do it in a different way. Plenty of articles on that proving it. This is just a feel good thing and a way for government to virtue signal. It’s ridiculous.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Well they shouldn’t. They should stay the hell out of the private sectors business.

How do you feel about monopolies? Also things like combining sawdust in flour to maximize profit?

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Especially something as silly as EV‘s. Anybody that pays any attention knows they cause just as much carbon buildup as ice does they just do it in a different way.

Hmmm. I'd like to think that I pay attention to this topic—fairly closely, actually—and I sure don't know this.

Originally Posted by Patton250

Plenty of articles on that proving it.

Great. Can you link to some?

I'll start. This is from a 2015 review of lifecycle assessments (LCAs) of GHG (greenhouse gas) emissions for EVs:

Many LCAs have been published, and all suggest EVs have the capability to reduce GHG emissions compared to gasoline vehicles, and LCA has proven a valuable way to ensure GHG emissions are reduced instead of shifting them. EVs utilize dynamic technologies and have the potential for widespread, global implementation in the coming decades while also reducing the use of gasoline and GHG emissions from the transportation sector.

This is from a 2018 lifecycle assessment of GHGs from both EVs and ICEVs:

Gasoline ICEVs using current technology have C2G [cradle-to-grave] emissions of ∼450 gCO2e/mi (grams of carbon dioxide equivalents per mile), while C2G emissions from HEVs, PHEVs, H2 FCEVs, and BEVs range from 300–350 gCO2e/mi. Future vehicle efficiency gains are expected to reduce emissions to ∼350 gCO2/mi for ICEVs and ∼250 gCO2e/mi for HEVs, PHEVs, FCEVs, and BEVs.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

Amazon became widely used because the US govt SUBSIDIZED every shipment that went out

[TAZ007]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Hmmm. I'd like to think that I pay attention to this topic—fairly closely, actually—and I sure don't know this.



Great. Can you link to some?

I'll start. This is from a 2015 review of lifecycle assessments (LCAs) of GHG (greenhouse gas) emissions for EVs:



This is from a 2018 lifecycle assessment of GHGs from both EVs and ICEVs:

Good reads, but do they include the carbon footprint to fabricate the batteries, engines, and other components?

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by TAZ007

Good reads, but do they include the carbon footprint to fabricate the batteries, engines, and other components?

Yes. A well-formulated lifecycle assessment (LCA), sometimes called a cradle-to-grave (C2G) analysis, will include this.

[BobBMWX3]

There are some interesting points here. I personally don't like governments having such a stake in engineering the world order. Throughout history we have seen governments push their will on people. Many times it was marked with good intentions. It is great to think electric is the way to go, and maybe it is, just don't force it on me through government will.

There are many solutions to solving the green problem. The biggest contributor is population growth. Why not make a law that says the population has to drop to a specific amount by 2030? This is an extreme, but what happens when our world leaders decide to do this.

I think the first thing we should do is start planting trees. Trees consume CO2. Then go with nuclear plants (which will take time, but we have trees). Then let us see where technology takes us...electric, hydrogen, garbage (saw a car converted to run on garbagge...it was great).

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

USPS Is Subsidizing Bezos' Quest to Make Amazon a Delivery Machine

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...s-2020-5%3famp

[toptobias]

Originally Posted by Roch M4

This is good news....we may still be able to enjoy ICE cars for the next 20 years!

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/bm...gines-just-yet

ui nice, will we see ...

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Hmmm. I'd like to think that I pay attention to this topic—fairly closely, actually—and I sure don't know this.



Great. Can you link to some?

I'll start. This is from a 2015 review of lifecycle assessments (LCAs) of GHG (greenhouse gas) emissions for EVs:



This is from a 2018 lifecycle assessment of GHGs from both EVs and ICEVs:

Listen brother I’m not even gonna go there with you. Just look it up yourself. You’re going to have to go to the second or the third page of Google because this is stuff these pro EV tech companies don’t want to let you know about but it’s absolutely true. Where do you think you get all the energy to power these things? How do you think you develop that energy? What do you think it takes to develop batteries and also to recycle them? These are all very easy answers to get if you do the research.